47kg Propane Calor Gas Prices - What are you paying?

fewkeste

stubuy wrote: »

Please take the time to read my previous post before you make accusations and think about going to tv programmes.

I read your long post and have some sympathy with suppliers regarding all the paperwork, safety regulation etc.

However, when we see customers in NI being charged horrendously high prices compared to mainland UK customers, then something underhand is clearly going on.

This behaviour has all the hallmarks of a cartel - it's as simple as that.

Also, when we see such a huge variation in prices and efforts by holiday park and residential site owners attempting to restrict customers' freedom of bottled gas supplier, then no wonder people are suspicious of suppliers.

stubuy

Please bear in mind that bulk gas and autogas goes through many less processes in the distribution chain and certainly less handling and distribution movements.
Whinge on, but don't whinge when it doesn't arrive on time when it gets a little bit cold for you. Unless a company makes a profit it can't invest in reliable vehicles and good drivers.

A._Badger

stubuy wrote: »

Please bear in mind that bulk gas and autogas goes through many less processes in the distribution chain and certainly less handling and distribution movements.
Whinge on, but don't whinge when it doesn't arrive on time when it gets a little bit cold for you. Unless a company makes a profit it can't invest in reliable vehicles and good drivers.

You are conspicuously avoiding the question.

stubuy

Sorry, it was not my intention to avoid the question. From the outset let me explain that I am a distributor for one of the nationals, as such I get my supplies from them two or three times a week. Therefore I am at the mercy of their price hikes the same as you are, however, I then have to decide firstly if I am to pass on the increase and secondly by how much. In the last two months I have had three increases passed to me, I swallowed the first, when the second came along I passed on approx 50% of it, then I was hit with the third increase. Having just passed one on, I could not justify passing a second one on to my customers and so swallowed that as well. So far from being greedy, scandalous rip off merchants some of us are family people trying to make a living in an increasingly competitive market, one only has to look to the high street to see how retail has declined, heaven help if this happens in our industry and it becomes unprofitable to deliver product.
One only has to look at the cost of petrol to see how the costs not only of the raw product but also the cost of distribution has increased over the last few months.
I also have a beef with park home site owners who restrict us from going onto the parks and have taken this to MP level.
My thoughts on NI are that they have an extra shipping charge to get the product to Ireland in the first place and this needs covering by the end user, a bit like the particular beluga caviar that I regularly enjoy, this costs more than fish paste as it comes all the way from Russia.
By the way frugalsteve we aren't delivering eggs, we are delivering very heavy, dangerous goods by qualified drivers in a much more heavily regulated industry so I sadly don't accept your argument, some people care, I have just had a lady call now, she has run out, I will deliver on my way home or she has no heating or hot water until next week. I hope one day you are shown compassion by somebody that does care.

frugalstephen

stubuy wrote: »

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By the way frugalsteve we aren't delivering eggs, we are delivering very heavy, dangerous goods by qualified drivers in a much more heavily regulated industry so I sadly don't accept your argument, some people care, I have just had a lady call now, she has run out, I will deliver on my way home or she has no heating or hot water until next week. I hope one day you are shown compassion by somebody that does care.

OK StuSold, the point I was making was that in general, people don't care how products end up on their front door, they just care that they do. The lady in distress you describe is a case in point. She has no interest in all the travels her gas cylinder makes, just that you will end up delivering, and probably installing it for her. That is entirely correct, most folk do not overly care how the animal is kept (of course, if asked they'll say they are horrified), but would be mightily miffed if their local Asda ran out of meat! Anyway, well done for offering great customer service...:)

A._Badger

stubuy wrote: »

Sorry, it was not my intention to avoid the question. From the outset let me explain that I am a distributor for one of the nationals, as such I get my supplies from them two or three times a week. Therefore I am at the mercy of their price hikes the same as you are, however, I then have to decide firstly if I am to pass on the increase and secondly by how much. In the last two months I have had three increases passed to me, I swallowed the first, when the second came along I passed on approx 50% of it, then I was hit with the third increase. Having just passed one on, I could not justify passing a second one on to my customers and so swallowed that as well.

<snipped>

You seem to be missing the point here. The fact that you feel the costs of running your business are very high and that is a difficult business to be in are really not relevant. The same could be said of the food, airline, medical, chemical and a dozen other businesses.

Your baseline costs will have increased, of course, but so they have for everyone. Protesting that you need special vehicles and trained staff is like a baker complaining he needs to satisfy food standards, employ bakers and own an oven. These may be an impediment to someone else starting up but they are a basic cost of doing business and are not a justification for sudden and significant price increases. They have not suddenly increased in price by over a third.

What is at issue is the margin being made and if, as you suggest, your price rises have been caused by the actions of your supplier, then that is their fault.

In my case, an increase of around £55 to £72 for a single 47kg container is simply not accountable for by raw material increases.

It was possible because there are just two suppliers in my area (Flogas and Calor and their agents) and if they decide to increase prices, there is nowhere else to go.

If you supplier is taking advantage of the market, then in that sense, you are as much at their mercy as we are.

stubuy

Essentially the point I am trying to get across is that I pay a certain cost for a 47 then add my margin based on my costs, a basic business practice, those costs are somewhat exaggerated over say an egg delivery man due to the factors previously explained. Delivery costs are expensive and therefore so is the cost of your end product. Please also note that crude has gone from $30 per barrel in 2016 to around $80 currently a not insignificant increase. I also know that the large providers are very aware of the large punitive penalties if they are found to be colluding on price and indeed despise each other and so would not operate a cartel. Don’t think for one minute I don’t argue and kick back when an increase is implemented but can also see the justification (most times) for the increases.

Mister_G

I'm still slightly confused. If you see my earlier post here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74823707&postcount=3164

then I do not understand how the price to you has increased that much over the past three years.

A._Badger

stubuy wrote: »

Essentially the point I am trying to get across is that I pay a certain cost for a 47 then add my margin based on my costs, a basic business practice, those costs are somewhat exaggerated over say an egg delivery man due to the factors previously explained. Delivery costs are expensive and therefore so is the cost of your end product. Please also note that crude has gone from $30 per barrel in 2016 to around $80 currently a not insignificant increase. I also know that the large providers are very aware of the large punitive penalties if they are found to be colluding on price and indeed despise each other and so would not operate a cartel. Don’t think for one minute I don’t argue and kick back when an increase is implemented but can also see the justification (most times) for the increases.

Due to the currently hyperactive CMA, a straightforward cartel is unlikely. What isn't illegal is a duopoly watching what each other does and raising its prices accordingly - which is what has been happening.

When you have a captive market that cannot easily switch to alternatives, why wouldn't you?

stubuy

In my experience it is quite the opposite. with each passing day one of the nationals attack our customer base with deals that don't stand scrutiny, I often use the analogy that if you went on Dragons Den with this great idea that you were going to buy a dangerous product, go through all the hoops that I have previously stated, buy millions of pounds worth of steel to package them in, purchase all of the infrastructure and then sell this product at cost price or just above. "I'm Out" would echo around the room.
Ans so far from a cartel cut pricing is rife, competition is intense. Take a look at the LPGA website and see how many gas companies there used to be and how many there are now where they have either gone bust or been bought out, you don't do that if you are making big profits.