Euro cash machines

Legacy_user

NFH wrote: »

There are several EUR cash machines operated by Raphaels Bank inside the new One New Change shopping centre in Cheapside. I withdrew €20 (the minimum) and my bank ... debited my EUR account by €20, proving no dynamic currency conversion.

It looks, therefore, as though Raphaels Bank machines (including the one trackside in the departure hall at St Pancras?) operate as follows:
1. Withdraw GPB from a GBP account: no fee.
2. Withdraw GBP from a euro account (eg if you are a foreign visitor to the UK, or a UK resident with a euro account): Machine debits you in euro, at a rate including a big profit for Raphaels Bank.
3. Withdraw euro from a GBP account: Machine debits you in GBP, again at a big profit.
4. Withdraw euro from a euro account: no fee, possibly as Raphaels Bank did not actually plan.

Meanwhile, the machines in Marks & Spencers remain a con.
(a) Withdraw euro (or US dollars) from a GBP account: Machine debits you in GBP, at a rate including a big profit for the machine operator.
(b) Withdraw euro from a euro account: Machine debits you in GBP, at marked-up rate, and then your bank re-converts back to euro, taking its profit as well.

The NatWest/Ulster Bank euro machine outside 15 Bishopsgate debits you in euro, irrespective of what currency your account is in.

Olipro

it's very simple, just bung your card in and it will eventually display a conversion rate or it will ask you which currency you wish to be debited in... if you don't get asked to select a currency and instead get presented with an exchange rate, cancel it and go elsewhere.

System

Olipro wrote: »

it's very simple, just bung your card in and it will eventually display a conversion rate or it will ask you which currency you wish to be debited in

I wish!
The machine in my nearest M&S just displays (grasping) conversion rates, and does not make clear that I will be debited in GBP.
The (saintly) machine at Natwest Bishopsgate just says it dispenses only euro, with a notice beside it giving the (normally) good news that it will be up to my card provider to convert that to GBP (or whatever), if necessary.
I don't know what the Raphaels machines display, and would be interested in some first-hand reports.

NFH

YoungNick wrote: »

It looks, therefore, as though Raphaels Bank machines (including the one trackside in the departure hall at St Pancras?) operate as follows:
1. Withdraw GPB from a GBP account: no fee.
2. Withdraw GBP from a euro account (eg if you are a foreign visitor to the UK, or a UK resident with a euro account): Machine debits you in euro, at a rate including a big profit for Raphaels Bank.
3. Withdraw euro from a GBP account: Machine debits you in GBP, again at a big profit.
4. Withdraw euro from a euro account: no fee, possibly as Raphaels Bank did not actually plan.

That's very interesting, because I had assumed after trying case 4 above that Raphaels Bank didn't do any dynamic currency conversion, but it seems my assumption was very wrong. However, I wonder how Raphaels Bank detects the account currency of the card being used. In my experience, banks detect the country of issue and not the account currency, resulting in UK-issued cards on EUR accounts often being invited inappropriately to be debited in GBP when used in the eurozone.

YoungNick wrote: »

Meanwhile, the machines in Marks & Spencers remain a con.
(a) Withdraw euro (or US dollars) from a GBP account: Machine debits you in GBP, at a rate including a big profit for the machine operator.
(b) Withdraw euro from a euro account: Machine debits you in GBP, at marked-up rate, and then your bank re-converts back to euro, taking its profit as well.

A good time to compare retail FX rates against the true wholesale market rates is the weekend, because the market is closed (or more accurately totally inactive and consequently not moving) after Friday 5pm NY time. Today my local M&S's Travelex cash machine was displaying a GBP/EUR rate of 1.111 and a GBP/USD rate of 1.539. Friday's market close (sourced from Integral FX Inside) was 0.8581 for EUR/GBP and 1.5862 for GBP/USD. This means a whopping 4.9% mark-up on EUR withdrawals and a 3% mark-up on USD withdrawals.

System

NFH wrote: »

... In my experience, banks detect the country of issue and not the account currency, resulting in UK-issued cards on EUR accounts often being invited inappropriately to be debited in GBP when used in the eurozone...

It must be more subtle than that, and I too would like to know how it works. (Come on, bank staff lurkers, enlighten us!) My Citibank debit card is linked at any one time to either our euro account, or our sterling account. (And, to be fair, call centre staff make the switch instantly on request.) If it's linked to our euro account, and I try to make a withdrawal from an ordinary UK GBP cash machine, the machine responds 'can't oblige, ask your card issuer to explain' (or words to that effect). The (helpful) meaning is 'You're being stupid: get the card linked to your GBP account before you try to withdraw GBP'. However, it is possible (but stupid) to use the card in UK shops when it is linked to the euro account; Citi then convert from GBP to euro, typically with only a 1% markup.

NFH

YoungNick wrote: »

It must be more subtle than that, and I too would like to know how it works. (Come on, bank staff lurkers, enlighten us!) My Citibank debit card is linked at any one time to either our euro account, or our sterling account.

With the four examples above, which ones have you verified with your Citi debit card? I would find it extremely surprising if a cash machine operator could detect which account you have instructed Citi to debit your transactions from. It is very likely that Citi (and not the cash machine operator) authorises or declines the withdrawal. My understanding is that the cash machine operators and merchant terminal providers detect the issuing country through the prefix of the card number, which primary identifies the card issuer. It would be much more complex to identify a varying account currency when the card number remains static.

Olipro

YoungNick wrote: »

I wish!
The machine in my nearest M&S just displays (grasping) conversion rates, and does not make clear that I will be debited in GBP.

by virtue of the fact it is displaying conversion rates, you are evidently not going to be debited in the currency it shells out.

If a machine debits you in the same currency as the notes it dispenses, no exchange rate will be applicable and hence, one will not be offered or displayed.

NFH

Olipro wrote: »

by virtue of the fact it is displaying conversion rates, you are evidently not going to be debited in the currency it shells out.

Whilst your logic is understable, YoungNick's four cases above demonstrate that conversion will be effected in some cases and not others, depending on the card used. Therefore the displaying of FX rates does not in itself confirm that a conversion will be carried out.

Olipro

NFH wrote: »

Whilst your logic is understable, YoungNick's four cases above demonstrate that conversion will be effected in some cases and not others, depending on the card used. Therefore the displaying of FX rates does not in itself confirm that a conversion will be carried out.

um... no.

anyone performing DCC is obligated to specify the exchange rate beforehand. If no exchange rate is specified then the transaction must go though in the same currency as the one being dispensed.

NFH

Olipro wrote: »

anyone performing DCC is obligated to specify the exchange rate beforehand. If no exchange rate is specified then the transaction must go though in the same currency as the one being dispensed.

I think it might be more accurate to say that the final currency and amount of the transaction must be displayed before the customer commits to the transaction. Some cash machines display FX rates before you even put your card in, so there could be circumstances where you see FX rates but none is applied (e.g. GBP cash from GBP account or EUR cash from EUR account).

System

NFH wrote: »

With the four examples above, which ones have you verified with your Citi debit card [in a Raphaels Bank machine]?

Only 1. withdrawing GBP when my card was linked to our Citibank UK GBP account. You, NFH, reported success with 4, euro from a euro account. Could you say, or (sorry!) say again, whether your euro debit card is issued by a UK or eurozone bank?

I was only guessing about 2 and 3, based on this puff from S1, who supply the software for ICE/Raphaels ATMs:
http://www.s1.com/Downloads/S1_ATM_Driving_at_Raphaels_Bank_and_ICE.pdf

I think you must be right that the machine can only tell what bank issued the card, and it must be Citi UK which (helpfully) declines to authorise a GBP withdrawal from a UK ATM when my card is linked to our euro account.

So my revised hypothesis about Raphaels Bank machines is:
1. GBP on a card issued by a UK bank: debited in GBP, no fee from Raphaels bank (except the standard interbank fee, which the customer's bank absorbs?) Will (I hope) by declined by Citi on a card linked to a Citi UK euro account.
2. GBP on a card issued by a bank in the eurozone: debited in euro, with a markup for Raphaels Bank.
3. Euro on a card issued by a UK bank: debited in GBP, at a rate with a markup for Raphaels Bank. Don't know whether this would apply to a Citibank UK card linked to a euro account.
4. Euro on a card issued by a bank in the eurozone: debited in euro, no fee from Raphaels Bank.

As you say, the Travelex machines branded M&S just display (rapacious) exchange rates, before you insert your card. It's implicit, but I think should be explicit, that you will be debited in GBP whatever the country and currency of your account. I think (but I'm not sure) that you don't get told explicitly the amount of the GBP debit.