Is it me or him?

ceridwen

Strider590 wrote: »

I blame the wife because if he was happy at home, he wouldn't be pulling this cr4p at work.

Oh yes he might be....there are some men who just seem to feel they are irresistible to women and will "try it on" - regardless of what the "state of play" is in their marriage.

Re the comment earlier in the thread about he might just see your actions to date as "playing hard to get" - I have wondered about this...Boiling down to the "some men think they are irresistible" and cannot really believe a woman is "turning down their (dubious) charms". Hence - a good reason for being very firm in telling him his behaviour is unacceptable. The "Will you please stop so-and-so? I dont like it" (maybe I wouldnt even use the word "please" in this context). Keep repeating that phrase (or a similar one) however many times necessary at each and any incident until the message gets through his thick skull. It may be necessary to stand there repeating it anything up to a dozen times - well if it is...it is...just keep right on repeating it - FIRMLY.

Re comments about leaving your job - why should YOU be the one that changes jobs because of HIS behaviour? Its entirely up to you of course and I can understand why it would be a tempting option - but if anyone suffers a penalty from HIS behaviour it should be HIM not you (as HE is the one at fault here). In the current economic climate you have to protect the job you've got - so I wouldnt advise leaving it unless and until you can find a comparable one. What might be a possibility is if there are other secretaries in the firm - and one of them is a Nora Batty look-alike and "armour-plated Dragon" type that would "put the fear of God in any man who tried it on". If there is a "Nora Batty" Dragon secretary in the firm - then maybe there might be a way to swop jobs with her. Someone like that would "keep a rein on him" and he wouldnt dare "try it on" with her - and you would have a replacement boss of a more reasonable nature:)

ceridwen

gwen80 wrote: »

I just wanted to pop in to offer my support. I can't look at my own thread at the moment. I've got too many battles to fight in real life without engaging in unnecessary ones on the internet.

I think this man is trying to become your friend and confidante (as the guy in my case did) in order to gain your trust for his own gain. You've seen what he's doing, unfortunately I didn't. A friend has described this behaviour to me as a type of 'grooming'. It makes sense, but wasn't really something I'd thought about ever happening to me. I thought it happened to 14 year old girls on the internet when they get chatting to a stranger.

To the person blaming his wife - what a ridiculous comment! Somebody commented to me, shortly after the incident, that 'maybe he isn't happy in his relationship'. It didn't make any sense to me. If that were the case, it would be acceptable for a single man to behave like this and it isn't. I thought the guy in my case might change his behaviour after he was married and take his vows seriously. He didn't, his behaviour worsened dramatically in just one incident.

Someone here suggested inventing a partner. I seriously considered this, but decided it was too difficult to keep up with, not only to him, but to others too.

I put on weight last year, I thought that might deter him and clearly it hasn't.

I would take ceridwen's advice and I would make sure that I'd made it absolutely crystal clear (preferably in writing and keep a copy) that his behaviour is totally unacceptable. I let things go that I shouldn't...the looking at my b00bs, touching himself, inappropriate emails...I thought if I ignored it, it might go away, he'd stop it when he was married blah, blah, blah...I've learnt a very hard lesson that there are some people out there for whom there are very few deterrants and normal morals do not exist. You have to protect yourself.

Wishing you the very best of luck

Gwenx

Good for you Gwen for popping on and giving support:T. Thanks too that you think I am giving the right advice here - I hope so...and certainly I have had some experience in the past of inappropriate work behaviour - hence why I started trying to work out how to handle things better myself back in the past. Some of my generation have been through this and come out the other end and I think its important for us to "be there" for younger women facing what we ourselves faced. I think its important for my generation to do what we can to help in circumstances similar to what some of us have faced.

I hoped you would come on here - but knew it had to be your decision and none of us had the right to put the suggestion to you. Pleased that you have come on to do so:)

hippygran

Jess,

I'm afraid you are going to have to tell him to back off. I know its hard to do, but in my experience (brilliant stuff - this hindsight!), people like this will ignore subtle signals, polite or tactful rebukes.

You need to tell him clearly and bluntly that you do not like his behaviour (he will then probably try to laugh it off - in an attempt to make you feel that you are making a fuss about nothing!).

So when he calls you 'sweetheart' - tell him you find this endearment patronising, and ask him to use your name. When he stands too close, tell him you have a 'hang-up' about personal body space' and would he mind not invading it? When he looks at your boobs, tell him where your face is!!!

He will probably try to act like YOU have the problem, and are being 'over-sensitive'. (YOU ARE NOT!!), but if it works - why care if it has the desired result?

I have to warn you though, this might not work (it didn't in my case), if he doesn't stop at this point, I'm afraid you will have to take it further and complain to HR, or his immediate superior.

I don't think you have misunderstood his behaviour, but you must not ignore it, and you must never put yourself in a vulnerable position with this person. DO NOT be alone with him!

In my case, although I was blunt to the point of rudeness with someone, I didn't report it, as I thought I could deal with it myself and didn't want to cause a 'fuss'.

It culminated in a quite serious incident, (which I cant go in to on here), and boy did I wish I had contacted HR sooner and to hell with the fuss!

I was taken seriously by both HR, and the police (although the severity meant it would have to be taken seriously really), but was assured by HR that earlier incidents would have been treated just as seriously.

Listen to people on this thread. Ceridwen and Gwen in particular, the advice is sound.

PM me if you need any further details/advice

Hippy Gran X

Sambucus_Nigra

dark_lady wrote: »

Going by Striders comment and the obviously dubious principles that he has then it was so obviously Sonia Sutcliffes fault that Peter Sutcliffe murdered all those women in the late 1970s then. Just demonstrating what a ridiculous comment this is. Idiot!

That's what the ignore function is for....

aitch-aitch

Hope you are managing to weed out the genuine advice on this thread.

I think that by posting on here you know that you need to do something about this man before it goes too far.

I don't see why you should pack in your job because of this but if you do so PLEASE for the sake of his next "victim" report this to HR and let them know this is the reason you are leaving.

Good luck hun - be brave.

Mischa8

aitch-aitch wrote: »

Hope you are managing to weed out the genuine advice on this thread.

I think that by posting on here you know that you need to do something about this man before it goes too far.

I don't see why you should pack in your job because of this but if you do so PLEASE for the sake of his next "victim" report this to HR and let them know this is the reason you are leaving.

Good luck hun - be brave.

Very interesting article in Daily Mail today on this:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1351274/So-does-saucy-office-banter-cross-legal-line.html

Surprisingly enough - this firm was the very same one I visited years ago for free legal advice (a 1 hour session) so they know their stuff.

I'd definitely try to hold onto my job, see Citizen's Advice Bureau, look into a tribunal, get HR involved etc before you even think about leaving. Why should this low-life of a man (and sorry Sho_me_the_money if he does have a personal hygiene problem be it bad breath or stinky BO and he's near enough that it offends OP then that does count) get away with this?

Good luck and stay strong

ceridwen

I read that Daily Mail article too. I was going through it guessing what the correct/obvious answer was at each point and scored correct on all points:)

I did wonder a bit initially about the first example - ie of someone passing a group of people having that type of conversation - but I think, on balance, that is an understandable "verdict" too. Reason = it IS extremely frequent for people to deliberately have a conversation about things that "just happen" to be relevant to the person walking past and "just happen" to be in a loud voice so that they can overhear. Its a very very frequent tactic actually for people to deliberately "get at" someone (on a wide variety of topics - not just "sexual banter") by changing the subject deliberately to say something directed at the person walking past - so that they can do the "wide-eyed innocent" look and say that they WERENT saying whatever-it-was to someone just because they werent saying it DIRECTLY to them. There ARE a lot of accidental-on-purpose conversations that are accidentally-on-purpose conducted in louder voices than normal if a person/people are deliberately trying to "get at" someone - but without it being possible for that person to prove that is what is happening. I've been on the receiving end of such "accidental on purpose" conversations which "just happen" to be when I am passing to know that its sometimes a deliberate tactic by a "Nasty".

It's really just obvious commonsense.

Thanks for giving the link.

Mischa8

You know what was insightful Ceridwen? The vast majority of comments on DM website by both men and women all seemed to think everyone was overreacting and what was wrong with banter etc? The comments also said it had ruined life and banter in public sector offices (coincidentally many many years ago I temped for probation services, this was when I think not long after there HAD been sexual harassment cases (almost 20 years ago) and I mentioned to my colleague how colleagues never commented on appearance etc and she said exactly that "too many sexual harassment cases, now the colleagues were scared to even compliment a lady (ie a male colleague) on something like a new hairstyle in innocence).

And yes, I agreed with all the points of DM article too and scored moreorless correct but although in some cases yes maybe they could be miscontrued as overreacting etc well why would these points be raised by employment law dept of lawyers and also obviously they have happened and upset people.

and like the lady in this article and gwen80 I am more and more convinced that the odd watercooler banter could well be set up for that certain colleague say with big breasts who a male colleague leers after.

So I think it's great this is being brought up and more awareness is brought to it. Very sad, I thought we had made leaps and bounds in this sort of harassment but obviously not.