Page of lease lost - not at land registry and not with me

bobbadog

Hiya
I'm selling my flat. I purchased it two years ago. It's leasehold, but i'm part of the management company that owns the freehold. There's 3 flats.

The buyers solicitors are missing one page of my lease. The Land Registry do not have it, I do not have it - my solicitor suggested my original solicitor may have it (and they're getting my papers out of storage) - but they were BArnetts so not holding my breath there. I didn't notice a page missing. We've got a company chairman - he's employed by us, he's on holiday but his assistant is trying to find a copy.

Worst case scenario, what happens if this page cannot be found - we're due to exchange next week and complete Feb 25. Can anyone advise please?

bobbadog

The chairman doesnt have a copy. He says my original solicitors should - however, what happens if they don't?

Does it have to be re-drawn up? Or is it simple, as in we re-file at Land Registry using the page from one of the other flats' leases? or do i sue the original solicitor for not noticing?
Am really worried my buyers will pull out. Should the Land Registry have noticed or is the blame just on my shoulders?

bobbadog

My other thought was, do the Land Registry have the lease originally on file from when we purchased it, from the previous owners? Or is this information deleted when a new purchase happens? Can I request it if so? I did a google and the phrase 'old deed search' came up but not sure if that helps with leasehold stuff.

shimano

Had the same, best thing to do is to ask your solicitor to ask for a copy of a lease of another flat in the block (if the page is referenced, ask for that page, e.g. "Plan X").

My missing page was a small map of the bin storage area and wasn't considered a problem. if it was convenant terms etc then that would be worrying. Our leases (share of freehold) are being redone anyway so not an issue.

Don't exchange until until you know for sure what's missing...

Richard_Webster

When the lease was first registered the Land Registry would have been provided with a copy. That copy may or may not have been complete. In recent years they have scanned in all such documents and sometimes the scanning company they used lost pages in the process!

Mortgage lenders used to keep leases but now don't want them because they take up space in their vaults so solicitors often keep them if they don't send them to their clients to keep.

When the lease was first granted there should have been a Lease and a Counterpart Lease which should have been identical except that the Lease would have been signed by the Landlord/Freeholder and kept by the lessee and his successors/mortgage lenders and the Counterpart by signed by the first Lessee and kept by the Landlord/Freeholder.

If the Management Company owns the Freehold then it should have the freehold deeds which should include the Counterpart Lease - if the Land Registry have the Counterpart produced to them they may be prepared to copy a page out of it. Problem is finding those deeds. If 3 flat owners got together say 10 years ago and set up a company and bought the freehold of the building whichever solicitor acted at that time would have got the Counterpart Leases. He typically would have been the solicitor that one of the flat owners had used to purchase his flat. Once he sold his flat it is unlikely he would have bothered to ask the solicitors to pass the freehold deeds on - so you could have that kind of problem in finding the freehold original deeds.

Second best is if the other leases are in identical format (which with conversions isn't always the case) then the Land Registry may accept a page from one of them. I had a case recently with a freehold property where the official copy of the first transfer of the house by the builder containing all the covenants etc was short of several pages. Fortunately my clients had a complete photocopy of the document which we produced to the Registry - they checked the format with other houses on the estate (it was a large national builder) and were satisfied and used my photocopy as the new official copy!

If they won't accept it then if the format looks the same then you would produce a copy of the relevant clauses and a missing documents indemnity policy. If the Land Registry copy is not complete and it is a scanning issue then the Registry may be prepared to pay for the cost of the policy.

bobbadog

Thank you so much! I rang the Land Registry who were EXCEPTIONALLY helpful - they went through my lease, and the other two flats leases - the page in question is actually blank! it's the page before the signatures. Quite annoyed neither solicitor realised from the appendicies that all clauses were present and correct, but still. Waiting for the solicitor to ring back.

RIchard Webster, thank you so much for your detailed answer!

bobbadog

Plot thickens - my solicitor explained (quite patiently) that i'm wrong, and I need to find the COunterpart lease. The 3 flats got together and purchased the freehold about 10 years ago, so am now trying to find out who holds the counterpart lease

He suggested I sort of need to prove the page is blank, if that makes sense.

Why on earth did none of this come up when I purchased the flat?! x I am really confused.

If it was 10 years ago, is there a chance the mortgage company would have it? Both myself and the lady I bought from were with Britannia

bobbadog

Richard_Webster wrote: »

When the lease was first registered the Land Registry would have been provided with a copy. That copy may or may not have been complete. In recent years they have scanned in all such documents and sometimes the scanning company they used lost pages in the process!

Mortgage lenders used to keep leases but now don't want them because they take up space in their vaults so solicitors often keep them if they don't send them to their clients to keep.

When the lease was first granted there should have been a Lease and a Counterpart Lease which should have been identical except that the Lease would have been signed by the Landlord/Freeholder and kept by the lessee and his successors/mortgage lenders and the Counterpart by signed by the first Lessee and kept by the Landlord/Freeholder.

If the Management Company owns the Freehold then it should have the freehold deeds which should include the Counterpart Lease - if the Land Registry have the Counterpart produced to them they may be prepared to copy a page out of it. Problem is finding those deeds. If 3 flat owners got together say 10 years ago and set up a company and bought the freehold of the building whichever solicitor acted at that time would have got the Counterpart Leases. He typically would have been the solicitor that one of the flat owners had used to purchase his flat. Once he sold his flat it is unlikely he would have bothered to ask the solicitors to pass the freehold deeds on - so you could have that kind of problem in finding the freehold original deeds.

Second best is if the other leases are in identical format (which with conversions isn't always the case) then the Land Registry may accept a page from one of them. I had a case recently with a freehold property where the official copy of the first transfer of the house by the builder containing all the covenants etc was short of several pages. Fortunately my clients had a complete photocopy of the document which we produced to the Registry - they checked the format with other houses on the estate (it was a large national builder) and were satisfied and used my photocopy as the new official copy!

If they won't accept it then if the format looks the same then you would produce a copy of the relevant clauses and a missing documents indemnity policy. If the Land Registry copy is not complete and it is a scanning issue then the Registry may be prepared to pay for the cost of the policy.

So Richard (thank you for the above) - am I doing everything right?
Land Registry says all three flats have a blank page 23. My solicitor says that doesn't matter legally, I need to get the original / counterpart - Am waiting for my OLD solicitors to get my paperwork out of storage to see if they have a signed counterpart. Have also asked the guy upstairs (he's chief Director), if he doesn't then maybe the solicitors they used to buy the freehold do.
If no-one has it, what happens then?
And are my original solicitors liable for anything? Not sure what I shoudl do and feel a bit useless waiting for Barnetts to dig out paperwork!

Richard_Webster

So Richard (thank you for the above) - am I doing everything right?

You've got the idea.

Your old solicitors unlikely to have Counterpart but might have Original Lease. Counterpart would probably be with solicitor who acted when freehold bought 10 yaers ago.

bobbadog

LIttle update - I've been in touch with the original solicitors (TW) who did the Freehold 8 years ago, and they're getting it out of storage for me for Wednesday. So if by chance my original solicitors (Barnetts) don't have the full lease with the missing (and probably blank) page when they check storage later today, then at least the originals do.

IF that's the case though, does it mean my original solicitors (BArnetts) have been rather naughty? They shouldn't have reported to me unless they had a FULL (no missing page) copy of the lease, and they obviously haven't sent the full one to the Land Registry. Is there anything I have to do to A) rectify everything before sale or to complain to my original solicitors for bad conduct? Do I get money back from them for the land registry filing?

Thanks as always

Richard_Webster

Were you the first lessee of the flat? It is only in that case that Barnetts would have sent a copy of the lease to the Land Registry. The LR don't get a copy every time the flat changes hands or is remortgaged.

If the text flowed naturally from the end of the last clauses into the sealing clauses and the only way of noting that a (blank) page was missing was that the page numbers were wrong I am not sure it is a point that a reasonable solicitor would be expected to notice and possibly your present buyer's solicitors are being over pedantic.

Certainly Barnetts should have either told you they were retaining the deeds and documents or have sent them to you. If you heard nothing from them as to their whereabouts then there may be a room for a complaint there - but frankly it is not that serious a point so don't expect them to offer you more than £50 or so by way of compensation.