New central heating install - WHAT TO DO?!

joenitro

My girlfriend and I have just bought a bungalow in Southern Scotland in need of some renovation and modernisation. The property currently has only night-storage heating and small immersion tank for the hot-water. There is no mains gas:(:mad:
I have registered to get cavity wall + loft insulation done, but have been told by the EST that it will be between 4-6 weeks wait:eek:
A close member of the family works for a renewable energy/heating company based in Scotland and can apparently do us a 'good deal' on a Nibe Air-Source Heat Pump air-water system. I haven't spoken to him yet but I presume a good bit of consultation to size the unit properly, some sort of trade price on the unit itself and also they are MCS certified so should qualify for the RHI, whenever it takes off!:rotfl:

My Dad (who is steering me towards a LPG combi-condensing boiler) is a building contractor of 25 years and thinks that underfloor heating (best for the ASHP?) will be a pain in the backside to install as the floor is suspended. Any views on this? Also if you go the radiator route with ASHP, the rads have to be oversized as the system works on lower temps than a conventional gas or oil fired system. How much do they have to be oversized by? Dad also thinks that considering the substantial costs up front (5-7k?) an ASHP is not really a great idea after reading many threads on here about the lack of heat at sub-zero temps, clearly when you need it the most!

After reading The Energy Savings Trust's field trial on heat pumps the results really do not fill me with much confidence on them. Are they still worth thinking about if the "deal" is good enough and we can definitely get an RHI payment? The plan is to hopefully sell the property in 2-3 years so in a way, minimizing outlay now would be preferable! That said, I am keen to install a heating system that will not put off the next purchaser.

Another thought is a wood burning stove in the living room with factory-fitted back boiler heating all radiators and DHW tank as well. On the face of it, this seems like a great idea as long as you can get wood cheaply enough! Seemingly, it costs as much to heat 7-8 rads as it does if only doing 2-3 as the stove still has to be running. This would be a pumped system and might possibly incorporate a thermal store. If so, there is also the option of solar hot water heating for the summer months when the wood burner would not be running! The stove however, demands a lot of attention to keep running at all times to ensure hot water/heating etc. Not to mention storing of logs and work involved.

Of course, we could simply leave the current old night-storage heaters in-situ and run them as normal, with the open fire to heat the living room in the evenings and immersion to do heating. But I can see this as being off-putting to any potential purchasers in the future.

There isn't any particular time-pressure apart from the fact that we won't be moving in for two months, so would be good to get any major work done before then.

Any thoughts / suggestions / things we haven't thought of?

Owain_Moneysaver

You can get solid fuel (usually wood pellet) boilers that run continuously and have a hopper feed for fuel and only need de-ashing every few days. However they're intended for utility rooms not the focal point of the lounge.

at the moment I think anything too unconventional is going to put off buyers, the technology is too new and not yet trusted.

The open fire is horribly inefficient, even if you use electric heating a lot of the room heat will vanish up the chimney.

A closed solid fuel stove linked to a thermal store, wet radiators, you have the option of heating the thermal store using Economy 7 or 10 electricity, and if you have a spare coil on the store now you can add solar or geothermal later.

However once you have the place insulated you will need a lot less heat anyway - I haven't had my heating on since Friday and it is toasty warm here.

joenitro

Thanks Owain.
I was thinking of something like a woodburner together with thermal store and possibly solar in the future. It's just the initial outlay for this which makes me think twice. Probably £2.5 - 3k all done, whereas a LPG combo boiler could probably be done for almost half that.
Any other suggestions anyone?!

ulsterman

Personally speaking, I wouldn't even think about buying a house with LPG as the cost of running the system once the initial sweetheart deal has expired will generally be a clean fortune. I'm on oil (which is far from cheap, but for heating at present I'm probably paying less than half what a neighbour is paying for LPG). Beyond that with LPG there's the hassle for any future purchaser of disentangling themselves from the LPG supplier... which dependent upon the supplier, can be problematic and far from straightforward.

One option worth considering could be oil. Interestingly, this may qualify for the forthcoming RHI via the bioheating oil option. Cost will certainly be more to install than LPG, but running costs should be considerably less. You can also integrate oil with solar too - Grant UK and Worcester Bosch have some interesting technology in this regard and which is definitely worth investigating.

Heat pumps can work and work very well, even at retrofit installations... equally, then can be a little bit hit and miss. I've seen some superb installations which work well and are saving the homeowner significant amounts of money compared with oil and LPG. Equally, I've come across a few where heating costs have escalated dramatically since their installation.

Regards

John

joenitro

Thanks for that John, it's always good to have some 'outsider' feedback. An oil fired system is not out of the question at all at this stage, it's just the apparent extra costs of buying the boiler and tank etc which ramp up the installation price quite a bit.
Interesting that you wouldn't even consider an LPG fuelled house as well. Have you had a bad experience with an LPG property and running costs in the past? I wonder how many other people feel the same way as you..?

I hadn't even heard of bio-heating oil until now. Just googled it to see that it is basically biodiesel without the road duty on it. Could be interesting IF it qualifies for the RHI? Do you know if you need a specially adapted boiler (possibly RHI/MCS certified?) to run bio-heating oil or if it's simply a straight swap for normal heating oil?
As you say, heat pumps seem to be very hit and miss at the moment. Think that there needs to be way more regulation and guidelines for surveying potential install sites to ensure that the correct size of heat pump and system (rads/underfloor heating/thermal store etc) is installed in the first place.

ulsterman

Hi Joe

I've no direct experience of LPG, but I do know of friends who've had horrific experiences with eyewateringly high bills. I also looked at purchasing two houses with LPG and when I did the sums, the cost of heating the house during the winter months was probably 50% of the value of the mortgage!

You may be interested to know that limited grant assistance should be available to you via the A1 Low Carbon Scheme... a maximum of £520, but hey every little helps More information at www(.)oilfiredup(.)com/site/news/item/1173

lovesgshp

Joe.
If you are only going to live in the house for 2-3 years, why not put in Inverters and just use the DHW tank with an immersion. You also gain the benefit of air-con if you need it in the summer!! A GSHP or ASHP, will involve fitting radiators, increasing costs, as would a LPG installation.

joenitro

Ulsterman,
The cost of running an LPG system is a concern, and I especially don't like the fact that you are tied into a 2 year contract with a gas supplier:mad: That said, the tank installation is taken care of by the gas supplier as opposed to an oil system where we'd have to buy a tank etc and do that bit ourselves. And thanks for the A1 Low Carbon Scheme link - useful to know:T

Geotherm,
I hadn't seen much on inverters, but a quick ebay search of all things brought up some interesting results. The DIY installation looks like something achievable (with Dad's assistance;)) but am a bit worried that they are a bit too similar to heat pumps in that they won't give much heat when outdoor temp is below freezing which can be for long periods in Scotland! Also, are the internal units not noisy as they are fan units? And presumably you need to have one in each room to be heated, along with lengths of the pipe to each unit. How many internal units can be run off the outdoor compressor?

Anybody have any views on woodburning stove with back boiler?

lovesgshp

Joe.
I think there are quite a few posts on here re inverters, so may be worth seeing others comments. I usualy deal with GSHPs so could only suggest those as a solution to your circumstances.

ulsterman

Joe - the woodburning stove with a back boiler looks like an interesting option and from a resale perspective is what I would expect to find in a rural house... albeit I've very little experience of these. But it certainly sounds like an idea worth investigating.

Reference LPG tanks - I'd just double check the supplier does actually complete the installation. In most instances I'm aware of, they just place the tank in-situ and connect up the pipework. Normally, you'll be responsible for all civils work i.e. base preparation, installation of blast walls (where required), repositioning manhole covers (if required) etc.

Calor do a good guide on LPG installation requirements - h ttp://bit(.)ly/ggrNyi

Our of curiousity, I'd be interested to know how you get on with the woodburner / backboiler as it is something I'm considering in my own house.

Cheers

John

joenitro

Geotherm,
Thanks, I have been having a good look at inverters but am not sure about how "popular" they'd be when the time comes to sell the house. Think they'd be seen as something different to normal - whatever that is! A GSHP is again probably not an option as it is solid rock around the house so presume that the borehole cost etc would be way above our budget.:(

Ulsterman,
I know what you mean about the woodburner/backboiler combo! It does interest me a lot:), but I can't make up my mind about whether the drawbacks:
Having to light the fire first thing in the morning and tend to it all day every day to heat the house.
The extra dirt, dust and grime assoiciated with the woodburner.
The fact that all the stove's quoted outputs are usually for coal and that running on wood gives approximately 40% less output, so might need a higher rated stove in the first place.
Pretty high install cost (stove purchase circa £1500, all plumbing for radiators & DHW tank, opening out the current fireplace to install woodburner and removal of 0.75 tonnes of rubble - a lot of work!)
Regular purchase of preferably well seasoned, dry wood and a decent area to store the wood.

Outweigh the positives:
Having a lovely fire all day!
No more running costs whether you only have one radiator turned on, or 7 turned on (as long as the stove outputs enough BTU's to start with!) - ideally, the stove is always running at an efficient burning temperature whatever happens.
Not being at the hands of fossil fuel price increases and hopefully not having to wait too long to have your fuel delivered. Even better if you could get some free wood in the first place:D

Ref LPG installation, yes I did understand that they would only site the tank. The trench etc for the gas pipe has to be done by us and also the connection to boiler has to be done by a Gas Safe engineer:o