Herbal remedies face licence rule

A._Badger

cootambear wrote: »

I

Herbalism is not medicine.

I'm just not going to waste any more time fielding your staggering ignorance of this subject.

Anyone who feels tempted to believe this poster's foolishness is advised to research the subject for themselves - the NIMH link I gave earlier is a good starting point. There are also any number of university medical resources both here and overseas to delve into. A starting point here might be the University of Middlesex's Herbal Medicine Degree course.

http://www.mdx.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/complementary_health/herbal_medicine_bsc.aspx

ceridwen

A._Badger wrote: »

It's certainly none of the EU's business - particularly when it's in the pocket of the giant pharmaceutical companies.

I choose to consult a medical herbalist in preference to a GP (yes, it works) and was warned this was coming a year ago. Despite having had a thorough (orthodox) medical education before qualifying, she is going to be limited in what she is able to use after this ban comes into force

I shall, of course, simply grow my own from now on - and damn the EU gauleiters!

I sympathise. I've been steadily buying up a good stock of herbal books - and thought "I must have a pretty comprehensive collection to be able to work out my own herbal remedies from now - considering I've even got one that diplomatically warns not to take various remedies therein if pregnant in case of a miscarriage:cool:". Not that I need that - at my age (ie middle-aged) and in the 21st century:rotfl:

I am guessing we will still be able to buy any herbs we want in exactly the same way as now - as, after all, they arent a "remedy" as such whilst still in the form of a few ounces of dried this or a few ounces of fresh that IYSWIM?

A._Badger

ceridwen wrote: »

I sympathise. I've been steadily buying up a good stock of herbal books - and thought "I must have a pretty comprehensive collection to be able to work out my own herbal remedies from now - considering I've even got one that diplomatically warns not to take various remedies therein if pregnant in case of a miscarriage:cool:". Not that I need that - at my age (ie middle-aged) and in the 21st century:rotfl:

I am guessing we will still be able to buy any herbs we want in exactly the same way as now - as, after all, they arent a "remedy" as such whilst still in the form of a few ounces of dried this or a few ounces of fresh that IYSWIM?

I'm not all that keen on self-diagnosis and treatment to be honest - though I will for minor afflictions, of course.

I think a lot of us who are gardeners are going to be developing our own little botanical gardens in future years. Having learned some of my gardening in one, many years ago, I'm actually rather looking forward to it!

cootambear

A._Badger wrote: »

I'm just not going to waste any more time fielding your staggering ignorance of this subject.

Anyone who feels tempted to believe this poster's foolishness is advised to research the subject for themselves - the NIMH link I gave earlier is a good starting point. There are also any number of university medical resources both here and overseas to delve into. A starting point here might be the University of Middlesex's Herbal Medicine Degree course.

http://www.mdx.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/complementary_health/herbal_medicine_bsc.aspx

thanks for that.

It always amazes me that so many of those who are so `open minded` when it comes to `new age thinking`, are so intolerant of those who do not share their views.

valk_scot

A._Badger wrote: »

I'm not all that keen on self-diagnosis and treatment to be honest - though I will for minor afflictions, of course.

I think a lot of us who are gardeners are going to be developing our own little botanical gardens in future years. Having learned some of my gardening in one, many years ago, I'm actually rather looking forward to it!

I agree with your first point but am more cautious about the second. I've been growing dye plants for years now and what I've learned from this makes me wary about self treatment tbh. Assuming (and this is a big assumption) I've diagnosed the ailment correctly, there's a lot more to preparing some herbal remedies properly and safely than just chucking a few spoonfuls in a teapot or munching them. The one thing I do know about preperation using home grown plants is that the plants are variable in content of active ingredient, both between individual plants, between seasons and from year to year. Experienced herbalists are trained to deal with this, the home grower not so much. I've got two lab based botany degrees and much experience in lab work elsewhere and really, I wouldn't feel myself competant to start handling what can be very strong drugs with many side effects unless I had proper training in the preparation methods, which is probably what a good amount of the degree courses are about come to think of it. I won't be growing my own medicinal plants. Culinary and dye ones, yes. Drug ones? Too many variables for this gardener.

Of course given that many herbal and other alternative treatments are pretty freely availible over the internet and on the high street plenty of folk are self diagnosing and self treating anyway, often to a dangerous degree. I'm all in favour of regulating this tbh. I'm not in favour of eliminating properly trained and regulated professional dispensation of alternative therapies though. We had herbal medicines long before synthetic medicines and it's still widely used and effective..in the right hands.

ceridwen

A._Badger wrote: »

I'm not all that keen on self-diagnosis and treatment to be honest - though I will for minor afflictions, of course.

I think a lot of us who are gardeners are going to be developing our own little botanical gardens in future years. Having learned some of my gardening in one, many years ago, I'm actually rather looking forward to it!

Personally - I have a 3 step way of dealing with illness that has served me pretty well to date:
- try and work out what is wrong myself
- then go and see the doctor to check out with them as to what their verdict is
- then get treated and/or treat myself with complementary medicine

So - I dont do self-diagnosis as such (well I DO - but I check out whether I'm right - so far so good on that and more accurate than the doctor at that:D).

I do think I might start growing my own herbs for treatment purposes - only got comfrey growing so far (knitbone).

My concern is whether its still going to be possible to buy an ounce or so of any dried herb I require in the same way as I can now - though I cant see how the drug manufacturers (whoops - make that their "fall guys" - the E.U.) can stop us doing that.

ceridwen

valk_scot wrote: »

I agree with your first point but am more cautious about the second. I've been growing dye plants for years now and what I've learned from this makes me wary about self treatment tbh. Assuming (and this is a big assumption) I've diagnosed the ailment correctly, there's a lot more to preparing some herbal remedies properly and safely than just chucking a few spoonfuls in a teapot or munching them. The one thing I do know about preperation using home grown plants is that the plants are variable in content of active ingredient, both between individual plants, between seasons and from year to year. Experienced herbalists are trained to deal with this, the home grower not so much. I've got two lab based botany degrees and much experience in lab work elsewhere and really, I wouldn't feel myself competant to start handling what can be very strong drugs with many side effects unless I had proper training in the preparation methods, which is probably what a good amount of the degree courses are about come to think of it. I won't be growing my own medicinal plants. Culinary and dye ones, yes. Drug ones? Too many variables for this gardener.

I'm not trained in herbalism - but can understand your reasoning on this and think you may well be right on the variable factors.

But if the drug manufacturers (or their shield - the E.U.) are going to make it awkward for us to get what we require from properly-trained practitioners - then what option do we have?

It may be the case that if we are given no option but to self-diagnose/self-treat (because the only other option is conventional medicine..) that the "self" route is the way we will go and it won't be our fault/responsibility IYSWIM if we get it wrong. If enough self-treaters "get it wrong" then at that point the E.U. will have to step in and do any restoration of status quo necessary to stop this happening.

So - are we going to end up in an analogous situation to the one that women with unwanted pregnancies were in prior to abortion being legalised? (ie they had to choose between DIY abortions or proceeding with the pregnancy).

Just how restricted WILL trained herbalists be come April? Can someone explain clearly please - including saying whether shops that sell dried herbs individually will still be able to do so?

misskool

A._Badger wrote: »

I'm just not going to waste any more time fielding your staggering ignorance of this subject.

Anyone who feels tempted to believe this poster's foolishness is advised to research the subject for themselves - the NIMH link I gave earlier is a good starting point. There are also any number of university medical resources both here and overseas to delve into. A starting point here might be the University of Middlesex's Herbal Medicine Degree course.

http://www.mdx.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/complementary_health/herbal_medicine_bsc.aspx

The main concern is that you cannot regulate the active ingredient of herbs in correct doses so that it will actually cure the patient.

An easy example is willow bark (which is the herbal equivalent of aspirin). You can be prescribed 0.5g of willow bark but it will be different to the next lot of 0.5g of willow bark that you ingest.

Unless plants can be grown uniformly and be assured to contain the same active ingredient that can cure patients.

There needs to be regulation also to ensure spurious claims of people who practice complementary medicine to the vulnerable are investigated. It's the same with the medical profession where the clinic in Germany offering stem cell transplants have been under great scrutiny. Currently, nothing like this exists with herbs. See what happened with the interactions of St Johns wort.

Of course herbs have medicinal value, humans managed before pharmacies and everyone picked their own herbs before this but you need to be able to make sure the doses are right for the person. The active ingredients of drugs are all metabolised differently.

valk_scot

ceridwen wrote: »

But if the drug manufacturers (or their shield - the E.U.) are going to make it awkward for us to get what we require from properly-trained practitioners - then what option do we have?

We still live in a democratic society. Lobby your MP with your concerns...though it's a bit late now, given that legislation is already going through. But if you have concerns about any legislation your elected representitive is the person to complain to.

Actually however the situation isn't that bleak. If you Google for it there's a great deal of information out there atm on the new regulations. Properly regulated practitioners aren't the main target...it's the unregulated over the counter supply from untrained staff to uninformed customer that's the target. Which doesn't sound that unreasonable on the face of it tbh.

A._Badger

valk_scot wrote: »

We still live in a democratic society. Lobby your MP with your concerns...though it's a bit late now, given that legislation is already going through. But if you have concerns about any legislation your elected representitive is the person to complain to.

Sadly, that isn't how the system works. The EU has developed a method whereby it sneaks in new regulations (frequently ''directives' issued by the unelected commissioners) with implementation dates in the far future.

This is what led to an earlier poster saying this story wasn't news. Well, no - but it will be to many who will suffer from it.

By the time the measures come into force it is far too late to stop them on an EU level and beyond the 'competence' of individual states.

Ask any fisherman how it works. And look what it has done to our fishing industry.

valk_scot wrote: »

Actually however the situation isn't that bleak. If you Google for it there's a great deal of information out there atm on the new regulations. Properly regulated practitioners aren't the main target...it's the unregulated over the counter supply from untrained staff to uninformed customer that's the target. Which doesn't sound that unreasonable on the face of it tbh.

That isn't what my (qualified) herbalist believes and I trust her judgement.