LED light bulbs

Dan_Iggulden

LED's are being given a really bad rep at the moment because there are so many companies selling inferior products, it really is frustrating!

It shouldn't be pot luck like it is at the moment, I went through 5 different companies before I found bulbs that were anywhere near as good as they stated.

It gives the whole LED concept a bad name

elstimpo

I got asked this question the other day and get asked questions very similar all the time, so i thought it might be helpful if i posted the question and answer on the forum.


Question

We are having our whole house renovated and planning to have downlights fixed in all rooms throughout the house. With this in mind I decided to do some research into this area including halogen and LED lights, and ended up reading the above discussion/forum very late the other night (and registering as a member!).

Given the above, would you be able to advise of the LED lights you are talking about or would recommend?

Is there any difference between low and mains voltage systems do you know?

We are looking to ideally use dimmer switches and get a system that allows instant switch-over to LED (I am trying to persuade my wife to go with LED rather than halogen!)

One more Q if that's ok: would you recommend GU10 over the MR11/MR16 or not (assuming there is a difference)?

Also, if there's any general advice you can offer (not looking for any special areas for spotlighting, just a decent quality and spread of light throughout the rooms/passageways),



Answer


With regards low (12v) and mains voltage there is a difference in the units and how they are/can be installed.

MR16 refers to the physical size of the lamp or more accurately the diameter of the lamp, the part you see in the ceiling. MR16 230v and MR16 12v are identical in this respect, it is the base fitting that is different, performance otherwise is similar for like rated products; ours are. The 230v version has a GU10 base fitting, 2 robust mushroom shaped pins that are inserted and twisted in the socket and the 12v GX5.3 base version which has 2 finer pins that are a simple push fit; they are not interchangeable.

The GU10 version has a larger base containing a built in power supply to convert the 230v to the low voltage needed for the LEDs in the lighting head, a 230v supply is needed to operate the units.

The GX5.3 base is smaller as there is no power supply, a 12v supply (12v AC or DC for our lamps) is needed to operate the units. How this supply is provided is open to a number of interpretations. Most UK electricians tend to supply 230v to each lamp and then use a small transformer for each lamp small enough to fit through the lamp fitting once the lamp is removed, consider the additional cost installation using this method.

Alternatively and especially for a new installation it may be worth considering using one master transformer (larger) which converts the 230v to 12v and then feeding the low voltage 12v output supply in daisy chain fashion to all the lamps.

So far the methods illustrated are suitable for both halogen and LED type lamps, the difference is with regards the transformers for the 12v units. Transformers intended for halogen lamps are generally not suitable for LED units which have their own specific versions. LED types may work with halogen type transformers but it is an extremely hit and miss method which we do not recommend.

Now with regards the uses of dimmers there are a few pitfalls for the unwary. The LED lamps for use with dimmers are specific types intended for use with dimmers, standard LED will not work. Also to be considered is the fact that most dimmers require a minimum lamp load of about 30w to function correctly, fine if you have a single 50w halogen unit but not if you have 1 or 2 5w LED units, total load 5 or 10w. Because the load is low the dimmer itself will not function correctly even if you are using dimmable LEDs, you must have a load sufficient for the dimmer unit which would be in the order of 8 x 5w LED lamps to be on the safe side for reliable operation.

Understand also that using a dimmer does reduce the light level, it does not proportionally reduce the operational costs, i.e. what you pay at the meter.

Without further specific information it is not possible to go into more detail but generally from what you are intending, and providing you have enough LED lamps in the circuit is probably would be easier/cheaper to use the GU10 versions; cost of GU10 against GX5.3 plus transformer(s)

elstimpo

madget wrote: »

Wow, elstimpo - talk about a picture painting a thousand words! Those photos really show the difference. Thanks for posting them and for the warning. Definitely ones to avoid.

If anyone finds an LED Product they think is good, feel free to pm me, i will get some and fully evaluate them and post up the findings on this forum.

The green spots have gone to my testing centre, so i will abe able to post info about the specifics of the bulbs very soon. The quality of the heat dissipation, the % energy saved over halogens, the quality of the manufacturing and the quality of the chip sets and raw materials used.

Should be interesting.

WestonDave

The trouble is - most of us don't know who is in the business ramping products and who is giving honest consumer advice - certainly long term posters on the site tend to have a degree of credibility in the latter sphere, but then again some professionals (e.g. Canucklehead regarding boilers etc, Alan M re granite worktops) have built up credibility of giving out good technical advice on what to look for and ask without recommending specific products.

I've dabbled with LED's but I don't currently have the time to get under floors etc to change drivers/transformers, and so I'm simply not prepared to spend out on lamps that may get ruined on old transformers. I'd however be interested in your view of the Lumineaux Warm white 24SMD 50W equivalents to MR16. I picked up a few of these cheaply on ebay for about £5 each, but you can get them online for a higher price. They do flicker a bit but for short run use e.g. in a toilet they seem to give off a good light - probably not as strong as a genuine 50W halogen but then again narrow beam spots in recessed fittings often need to be overpowered because the light doesn't spread as far.

sillygoose

elstimpo wrote: »

If anyone finds an LED Product they think is good, feel free to pm me, i will get some and fully evaluate them and post up the findings on this forum.

The green spots have gone to my testing centre, so i will abe able to post info about the specifics of the bulbs very soon. The quality of the heat dissipation, the % energy saved over halogens, the quality of the manufacturing and the quality of the chip sets and raw materials used.

Should be interesting.

Why have you not binned them? you bought the wrong thing to what I was suggesting.. so you are falsely persisting in passing off (a no doubt possibly poor item) as the one I am recommending even though it obviously has no relation to it.

Don't you think the 'childish' angle is wearing a bit thin?

I could get into massive debate about the technical issues but you don't seem to have any clue where you are... this is the MONEY SAVING EXPERT forum. People don't want to be bored with our to and fro they want to know what works at good value.

Lets get back to basics of what MSE is about..... focus now!

FACT

1. I have tried various bulbs, no claims to have tried all of them.

2. THESE (which are NOT the ones being slagged off by a competing retailer here) are the ones I personally recommend and have bought a lot of for my own and family use.

3. I have no connection whatsoever with the above company, I am far too busy doing my bit for a very large German technology company thank you.

4. You can pay as much as you like for a bulb but my point is the ones in the link will fulfil many peoples (of course not all peoples) needs for about £4.50 each.

I make no apology for plugging outstanding value when I find it - or do all the people pointing out bargain Baked Beans on the shopping forum work for Heinz? :rotfl:

5. Photos from a competitor who's link shows they bought the wrong thing anyway! mean nothing anyway - 10 seconds in Paintshop can make them as good or bad as you like.... instead of taking the word of a vested interest, look at the 14,000+ sellers feedback on the link above.
(hows your feedback rating doing elstimpo?)

6. I would have worries about any supplier who can't even buy a bulb off ebay without messing it up and buying the wrong thing! - check your delivery from him carefully!

Seriously, you can carry on with your spluttering page long ramblings and abuse but the above is what matters here, an honest pointer from an unbiased long time member here who has done some ground work themselves and doesn't want anyone to get ripped off. So shoot me.

elstimpo

sillygoose wrote: »

Why have you not binned them? you bought the wrong thing to what I was suggesting.. so you are falsely persisting in passing off (a no doubt possibly poor item) as the one I am recommending even though it obviously has no relation to it.

Don't you think the 'childish' angle is wearing a bit thin?

I could get into massive debate about the technical issues but you don't seem to have any clue where you are... this is the MONEY SAVING EXPERT forum. People don't want to be bored with our to and fro they want to know what works at good value.

Lets get back to basics of what MSE is about..... focus now!

FACT

1. I have tried various bulbs, no claims to have tried all of them.

2. THESE (which are NOT the ones being slagged off by a competing retailer here) are the ones I personally recommend and have bought a lot of for my own and family use.

3. I have no connection whatsoever with the above company, I am far too busy doing my bit for a very large German technology company thank you.

4. You can pay as much as you like for a bulb but my point is the ones in the link will fulfil many peoples (of course not all peoples) needs for about £4.50 each.

I make no apology for plugging outstanding value when I find it - or do all the people pointing out bargain Baked Beans on the shopping forum work for Heinz? :rotfl:

5. Photos from a competitor who's link shows they bought the wrong thing anyway! mean nothing anyway - 10 seconds in Paintshop can make them as good or bad as you like.... instead of taking the word of a vested interest, look at the 14,000+ sellers feedback on the link above.
(hows your feedback rating doing elstimpo?)

6. I would have worries about any supplier who can't even buy a bulb off ebay without messing it up and buying the wrong thing! - check your delivery from him carefully!

Seriously, you can carry on with your spluttering page long ramblings and abuse but the above is what matters here, an honest pointer from an unbiased long time member here who has done some ground work themselves and doesn't want anyone to get ripped off. So shoot me.

I think this thread is perfectly positioned to show how honest a poster you are and to highlight your lack of knowledge and zero experience of the LED Lighting industry. You have absolutely no answers to the points i have put to you. You make things up and try and sound like you know what you are talking about. You have been exposed.

I bought the products that your link took me to which has, rather interestingly, been removed since i posted about the products on this forum. The latest link you have posted seems to be exactly the same product, just maybe slightly different on the color index. Which basically means that the results that come back for your hilarious teenage mutant ninja turtle LED Spot, will be exactly the same as they would be for the product in this latest link, bar colour.

My feedback rating from my customers is 100%. You don't plug outstanding value products, as far as i can see you plug products that are sub standard and next to useless.

As previously stated, you have made many accusations against me with absolutely nothing to back your wild conspiracy theories up. That is the person you are. I knew 100% that you would reply with yet another one. What is wrong with you? Absolutely waste of time.

If you want to debate LED Lighting with me, then fine. If you are going to continue with insulting, false and childish accusations against me that you cannot back up with any credible evidence or reason, then from now on i will take the necessary action. Enough is enough.

This forum and it's members can come to their own conclusions about who knows what about LED Lighting and who to trust from the contents of this thread.

Dan_Iggulden

Yawn.

1. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. Consider it lengthened!

elstimpo

Some early comments below with regards to the sillygoose recommended LED Spots from my testing centre;



We have received 2 multi LED devices (low/old technology as people would have it) and 1 Philips unit.

The old technology units appear to be built into the same existing glass envelope that the standard tungsten halogen units are constructed from, there appears to be no additional heatsink as a means of removing generated heat; perhaps they don’t become warm in use, time will tell.

sillygoose

elstimpo wrote: »

Some early comments below with regards to the sillygoose recommended LED Spots from my testing centre;



We have received 2 multi LED devices (low/old technology as people would have it) and 1 Philips unit.

The old technology units appear to be built into the same existing glass envelope that the standard tungsten halogen units are constructed from, there appears to be no additional heatsink as a means of removing generated heat; perhaps they don’t become warm in use, time will tell.

Utter, total tosh... YOU HAVE NOT BOUGHT THE ONES I RECOMMENDED stop making things up... do you think anyone is going to do business with you if you keep this up?

Why don't you 'test' the ones from B&Q I didn't recommend those either
or
the ones from Screwfix.... I didn't recommend those either
or
the ones from Narnia (nearer home for you I suspect) I didn't recommend those either.
Are you getting the principle yet? good man!

elstimpo

sillygoose wrote: »

Utter, total tosh... YOU HAVE NOT BOUGHT THE ONES I RECOMMENDED stop making things up... do you think anyone is going to do business with you if you keep this up?

Why don't you 'test' the ones from B&Q I didn't recommend those either
or
the ones from Screwfix.... I didn't recommend those either
or
the ones from Narnia (nearer home for you I suspect) I didn't recommend those either.
Are you getting the principle yet? good man!

What a cracking response, full of technical and intelligent facts and debate as per usual. :rotfl:

Business is going very well thank you. Plenty of intelligent and well informed people around who like to buy quality products that actually have the ability to save money, energy and C02, unlike the rubbish you tout.

The spots you first linked to, that i bought and tested (that were pathetic), have the exact same casing and heat dissipation as the ones you are now pretending you linked to originally. just so there is absolutely no confusion can you confirm these are the products you are touting as 'perfect 50w Halogen replacements' and the ones you have shown in your pictures.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-X-GU10-60-LED-WARM-WHITE-50Watt-2-YEARS-GUARANTEE-/190544880678?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&hash=item2c5d5c2426



incidentally i have bought your latest recommendations and will be testing those too. If your going to pretend you linked to another product once i have tested them is there any chance of a heads up.


Are you going to run me through the specifics of your £5 LED Spot lights yet? I;ve asked nicely three times now, yet you continue to be unable to answer? :cool: