Advice required please! Mental health issues / work disciplinary

sealman

Hello, I could do with some advice please!

I'm currently undergoing treatment for depression and other mental health issues, and I am currently signed off work.

As a bit of history for the past couple of years at work I've been having problems, the result of that being several investigatory hearings. This then made me realise last year that my depression had been coming back (last time I was quite unwell with it was ~2001, before I started my current job. HR was aware of it when I started employment in 2003).

I was then put on anti-depressants, move forward to last year and It would seem that due to side effects of the medication I had concentration issues / memory loss which generally resulted in me being somewhat mistake prone (perhaps incompetent in retrospect), which resulted in me getting a written warning, and then a final written warning towards the end of last year. During the investigation for the final written warning I had been signed off from work by my GP as the added stress was not helping at all.

Not sure what to do now, my 6 months full sick pay will run out in a month or two, then I'll drop down to half pay, however the thought of returning to work makes me feel very anxious, I'm paranoid that the slightest thing wrong will result in me getting the heave-ho. :mad:

I have been having a little look around job centre site, not much available job wise, and I'd probably flunk an interview anyway the way I'm feeling.

Part of me feels that I should just resign, make a clean break, concentrate on getting better, then make a fresh start.

However I moved into my own place 13 months ago so I am now mortgaged up, and being single I'm having to rely on my own wages to live off!

I'm not sure what benefits I'd be entitled to if I resigned, although I do have a good bit of money tucked away so that I could survive for ~6 months with nothing coming in I'd worry that it would take longer than that for me to get better, and for me to find a job, then I'd end up losing my house! (catastrophic thinking doesn't help, I know!). And how would you explain that you had to resign / or were dismissed because you were a mentally unwell incompetent employee?

I'm seeing my GP next week as my current sick line runs out at the end of next week, I'll probably get signed off again, so I imagine that will trigger another visit to works occupational health doctor.

Anway, sorry for this long rambling post, not sure what advice I'm looking for, but it's good to get this off my chest.

The only good thing I've found is Airfix / scale model making is quite good to keep your mind off things if you are off work unwell! :T


Thanks in advance for any advice / positive vibes!

wantsajob

Resigning would mean no benefits for a specified length of time (not sure what that is).

Can you think of any reasonable adjustments they could make for your condition? The following is an extract from https://www.hief.org.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hieftoolkit7.pdf although remember that the Disability Discrimination Act is now known as the Equality Act.

DEPRESSION


[FONT=&quot]Depression is a very common mental health problem. Although everyone feels sad or fed up on occasions, for some people depression can be an illness interfering with their ability to live a normal life. It is estimated that 7 – 12% of men and 20 – 25% of women experience diagnosable depression at some point in their lives. GPs often write “stress” on a sicknote to avoid stigma, when they are in fact treating depression.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The World Health Organisation’s International Classification of Diseases (WHO ICD) says the most typical symptoms of depression are depressed mood, loss of interest and enjoyment, and reduced energy leading to increased fatiguability and diminished activity. Marked tiredness after only slight effort is common. Other common symptoms are reduced concentration and attention, disturbed sleep, diminished appetite, reduced self-confidence, ideas of guilt and unworthiness, bleak views of the future and ideas of self-harm.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Depression is often triggered by traumatic life events which are unrelated to the workplace situation. However depression, anxiety and related mental health problems can also be caused or exacerbated by problems at work, eg unrealistic workloads, too high expectations, long hours and bullying. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) says stress at work is a serious problem. It defines stress as the adverse reaction people have to excessive pressure or other types of demand placed on them. The HSE has commissioned research which indicates that up to 5 million people in the UK feel “very stressed” by their work, with about half a million experiencing work-related stress at a level they believe is making them ill. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Unfortunately, research by the TUC indicates that people with mental health problems face the worst discrimination and few employers have policies on this.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]See also Mental Health Issues on p82 for specific conditions.[/FONT]

Is it covered by the DDA?


[FONT=&quot]There are many cases where a worker with depression has been covered by the DDA. Depression can affect virtually all of the day-to-day activities because of the overriding effect of extreme tiredness. These day-to-day activities are particularly likely to be affected: [/FONT]
þ [FONT=&quot]Memory or ability to concentrate, learn or understand [/FONT]
þ [FONT=&quot]Mobility [/FONT]
þ [FONT=&quot]Perception of the risk of physical danger [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Where depression is controlled by medication or medically prescribed counselling, the effect must be assessed as it would be without medication or counselling.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Depression, especially when it is a reaction to a particular event, may not last 12 months. On the other hand, a worker may have recurring bouts of the same depression, which occur more than 12 months after the original depression. If so, the condition would be covered as having a fluctuating effect. [/FONT]

Reasonable adjustments


[FONT=&quot]Always consult the worker. Particular patience and sensitivity may be needed where a worker is depressed. Appropriate adjustments depend on each individual and the nature of their difficulties. The following are some suggestions.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Do not ignore symptoms of stress or depression.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow shorter, adjusted or flexible hours.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow longer or more frequent breaks.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow full or partial home-working.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow time off for counselling and personal telephone calls at work for support.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow the worker to listen to soothing music, through headphones if necessary.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Ensure natural light in the workspace.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]To help with concentration: reduce distractions and interruptions; provide a private office or workspace; break large tasks down into small stages.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allow meetings to be recorded or provide written notes/minutes afterwards.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]If the worker is off sick, do not pressurise him or her by setting deadlines for return.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Agree a staged return to work in terms of hours, days and workload.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Ensure the worker is welcomed by colleagues and managers on his or her return; train supervisors to provide a positive response; take steps to ensure the worker is not isolated or bullied by colleagues, as can often happen.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Ensure the worker returns to a clean in-tray.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]On the worker’s return, review his or her physical environment; brief the worker on both social and work developments; plan workload and support; discuss possible adjustments.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Deal with any underlying cause of stress, eg bullying, excess workload or difficult customers.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Provide ongoing positive support.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Depression is often triggered by disciplinary proceedings. If it is necessary to take action while a worker is depressed, handle the proceedings with sensitivity and flexibility. Give good notice of hearing dates; allow a companion of choice; give full detail of the allegations and support documents well in advance of the hearing. For more detail of handling disciplinaries and grievances with a depressed worker, see pp32 - 33.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Code suggests:[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allowing private telephone calls during the day to a support worker. (Code, 5.12)[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]It may be a breach of the duty to make reasonable adjustments to fail to ask a worker why he or she keeps crying at work and to discipline the worker without giving him or her the chance to explain the problem arises from depression. (Code, 5.12)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Real tribunal cases:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tribunals have made these suggestions:[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Altering working hours.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Where the worker was absent for a while, allowing a phased return to work.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Where the depression was caused by the worker’s relationship with her line manager or by the type of work she was doing, redeployment or providing a mediator to intercede.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Allowing a grievance to be lodged outside the time-limit set in the employer’s grievance procedure.[/FONT]
q [FONT=&quot]Where the worker was facing disciplinary action in relation to any matter, allowing additional time to prepare, being flexible over dates, postponing the hearing until the worker is fit to attend, allowing an appeal to be lodged outside the time-limit in the disciplinary procedure.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Cosgrove v Caesar & Howie[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ms Cosgrove was a legal secretary from 1973 – 1999. She was absent from work due to depression from 2 December 1997 and did not return. After one year’s absence, she was given 12 weeks’ notice of dismissal. The tribunal rejected her discrimination claim. It was influenced by the fact that neither Ms Cosgrove nor her doctor were able to suggest any possible reasonable adjustment.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The EAT overturned the decision and said the firm had failed to make reasonable adjustments. The firm had given no thought to reasonable adjustments whatsoever, and it was therefore irrelevant that neither the worker nor her GP could make suggestions. The EAT could think of several possibilities, eg transferring her to another office, altering her working hours, arranging a gradual return to work. Although none of these adjustments would definitely have worked, there was no assurance that they would not have worked either, and the employer should therefore have considered them.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]See p14 for general adjustments suggested in the DDA and p23 for further suggestions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

sealman

Thanks for that reply regarding DDA and reasonable adjustments.
However I fear that requesting such adjustments would wind my line manager up even more!

However I suspect that if I get signed off by my GP again next week that will probably trigger another visit to the works occupational health doctor, so we'll see what can he recommends.

Googlewhacker

sealman wrote: »

Thanks for that reply regarding DDA and reasonable adjustments.
However I fear that requesting such adjustments would wind my line manager up even more!

However I suspect that if I get signed off by my GP again next week that will probably trigger another visit to the works occupational health doctor, so we'll see what can he recommends.

Don't just say you want more flexible hours etc, you have to approach it correctly and to be honest if you are feeling upto to going back to work then ask your Dr to specifically write down the adjustments that you would like work to consider.

There is no guarantee that they will be able to do them but for the future if they don't and they don't have a good business reason they will get themself into a bit of trouble if you take it further for discrimination.

dmg24

wantsajob is wrong, you will not be sanctioned if you resign for health reasons.

Googlewhacker makes an excellent point, you need to think through any reasonable adjustments, because if you request them and you still are not capable of fulfilling your role they can go down the disciplinary route. Also note that any adjustments need only be reasonable, so the business may have a valid business reason for refusing them.

wantsajob

dmg24 wrote: »

wantsajob is wrong, you will not be sanctioned if you resign for health reasons.

I wasn't aware of this.

However, my understanding is if health reasons and lack of adjustments at work mean someone with a disability cannot go to work, legally they can not go to work and expect to be paid in full until such a time as the adjustments are made and they can return (but will obviously have to inform the company of this requesting payment and stating which adjustments are needed, asking that they be informed when they are made in order to return to work.) So they may not need to resign in order to get some respite from a workplace which has not had reasonable adjustments, and may not suffer financially for doing so either. However I am guessing that with most businesses getting the money out of them would be a fight due to the "no work, no pay" and contractual obligations, and so on.

dmg24

wantsajob wrote: »

I wasn't aware of this.

However, my understanding is if health reasons and lack of adjustments at work mean someone with a disability cannot go to work, legally they can not go to work and expect to be paid in full until such a time as the adjustments are made and they can return (but will obviously have to inform the company of this requesting payment and stating which adjustments are needed, asking that they be informed when they are made in order to return to work.)

It is not as simple as that. There is the issue of determining what adjustments may help, whether those adjustments are reasonable given the size/ type of organisation, and ultimately whether there is any prospect of the employee returning to that role.

There is also the question of whether the OP is in fact covered by the DDA/ EA. Whilst it is likely that they are on the information given, not everyone with depression is.

sealman

Thanks again for all the replies.

As an update I saw my GP last week, and he reduced my dose of happy pills, and I'd say I'm a bit less muddy headed now!

Signed off for another 4 weeks, and I would imagine that will mean I'll have to visit works occupational health doctor soon.

Still in two minds what to do. Resign, get a whole load of weigh taken off my shoulders regarding returning to my current work. Only problem with that would be making sure I had enough money coming in each month to be able to spread my savings out to pay mortgage / bills until I found a new job. Unfortunately the critical illness insurance I'm currently paying for won't pay out for mental health related illnesses as they deem that a pre-existing condition seeing as I had depression etc back in 2001).

Or try and get better over the next month or so with the aim of returning to work, seeing how it goes (perhaps it won't be as bad as I imagine despite currently being on a final written warning?)

Decisions, decisions.

One other good thing is that looking out my window it looks like spring is on it's way, sun in the sky, birds chirping away! :T

Again, thanks for all the replies.

Googlewhacker

Talk to your employer and start making noises about coming back but you may require some reasonable adjustments and see what their feeling is I guess.

sealman

As an update I had a meeting with HR today.
They said they would offer me full support if I were to return, however if I have any more performance related issues then they would proceed with further disciplinary action which would probably result in my dismissal.
They also informed me that they are now finalising the planned relocation of my work place which would result in what is currently a 1.5 mile each way commute to a 36 mile round trip!
I explained that I'm still not 100% fit, and feel quite anxious about returning to work, I would return to work if they would offer me reduced hours to get back into way of things.
HR sounded interested in that, however there weren't any reasonable adjustments they could do apart from reduced hours and support from HR and management. It was at this point in the meeting they introduced the following fast ball into the field.

If I were to resign, then they would offer me 4 weeks pay in lieu of notice, payment for the rest of my sick leave , payment for what I think is ~21 days leave I didn't take last year, and then payment for the unused leave for 2011.

I said to HR that I would need time to think about this see the actual figures and asked if they could come up with anything more financial wise as a compromise agreement.

One one hand if I took the money and ran that would be a *huge* weight off my shoulders, which would help me enormously, however then I would have to explain resigned due to ill health on any job application forms / cv, and they would could that on my reference. (unless I was able to arrange a compromise agreement)

On the other hand, I could try going back to work, however I feel that they would try to find the slightest performance issue to start further dicsiplinary hearings with aim to dismissal on capability grounds. Plus the added cost of the relocated work place would be quite difficult financially.

On the other other hand I would be able to draw a line under this whole horrible experience, get myself better, and have a fresh new start, with new opportunities, perhaps even doing some bicycle touring which I have been dreaming about for the past few years!

On the other other other hand, its quite a frightening decision to make, however financially I should be able to survive for well over a year financially even without any benefits coming in.

Another sleepless night tonight I fear, thinking this over, last night I hardly slept as I was worrying about what today’s meeting was going to be about!

Decisions, decisions. I'll probably discuss this with my parents, and also mention it to my union rep and she what she suggests.

Uncertain

sealman wrote: »

As an update I had a meeting with HR today.
They said they would offer me full support if I were to return, however if I have any more performance related issues then they would proceed with further disciplinary action which would probably result in my dismissal.
They also informed me that they are now finalising the planned relocation of my work place which would result in what is currently a 1.5 mile each way commute to a 36 mile round trip!
I explained that I'm still not 100% fit, and feel quite anxious about returning to work, I would return to work if they would offer me reduced hours to get back into way of things.
HR sounded interested in that, however there weren't any reasonable adjustments they could do apart from reduced hours and support from HR and management. It was at this point in the meeting they introduced the following fast ball into the field.

If I were to resign, then they would offer me 4 weeks pay in lieu of notice, payment for the rest of my sick leave , payment for what I think is ~21 days leave I didn't take last year, and then payment for the unused leave for 2011.

I said to HR that I would need time to think about this see the actual figures and asked if they could come up with anything more financial wise as a compromise agreement.

One one hand if I took the money and ran that would be a *huge* weight off my shoulders, which would help me enormously, however then I would have to explain resigned due to ill health on any job application forms / cv, and they would could that on my reference. (unless I was able to arrange a compromise agreement)

On the other hand, I could try going back to work, however I feel that they would try to find the slightest performance issue to start further dicsiplinary hearings with aim to dismissal on capability grounds. Plus the added cost of the relocated work place would be quite difficult financially.

On the other other hand I would be able to draw a line under this whole horrible experience, get myself better, and have a fresh new start, with new opportunities, perhaps even doing some bicycle touring which I have been dreaming about for the past few years!

On the other other other hand, its quite a frightening decision to make, however financially I should be able to survive for well over a year financially even without any benefits coming in.

Another sleepless night tonight I fear, thinking this over, last night I hardly slept as I was worrying about what today’s meeting was going to be about!

Decisions, decisions. I'll probably discuss this with my parents, and also mention it to my union rep and she what she suggests.

The BIG advantage of getting a compromise agreement in these circumstances is that it could include an agreed reference. This could well be worth more to you than a few thousand pound settlement.

It seems to me that what they are offering you is more than you bare legal entitlement so they would be stupid indeed not to wrap this up as a CA to protect themselves. You could otherwise take the money then pursue a constructive dismissal claim against them! Assuming they are going down the CA route (i.e. paying for you to be legally advised) then it will cost them nothing to agree a glowing reference that is worded so as to provide no health / sickness indication.

The normal advice in these health situations is not to resign, sit it out and let the firm make the moves. However, this takes no account of how the situation is making you feel.

I'm sure if you resign you will, for a while, feel some relief. However this could easily be replaced in a few months by further depression from feeling that you have not come out of the situation as well (financially) as you could have done. It is not easy and no two people are the same.