lighting job turns into major rewire?? - fair?

Owain_Moneysaver

debtfree1day wrote: »

He looked at electric and gas meter. Was happy with bonding on gas, but on electric wasn't. He then started undoing sockets and pointed out green stuff, eltrolysis or something, which he said is a reflection of no earthing,

Mince.

This is from the plasticiser used in some cables.

This thread on the IET Forums (the IET are the people who write the Wiring Regulations) discusses.

The PVC insulation will eventually become brittle and crack, and the goo may cause tracking and resistance faults at accessories and should be cleaned.

baldelectrician

From the sounds of it a PIR may be an additional cost

You could get someone in to replace the consumer unit and carry out bonding- they will test the wiring when the consumer unit is changed, so this will give you a lot more information and a safer house

You should use a competent person for the work, links below
In Scotland:
Individuals registered;
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/register/ListAC.asp
Companies
http://www.sbsa.gov.uk/register/SearchRegCo.asp?T=Construction
In England and Wales:
http://www.competentperson.co.uk

Homersimpson

andrew-b wrote: »

Earth bonding is 100% necessary ..equipotential bonding (one part of earth bonding) from water main, gas main to consumer unit ensures that even if an earth supplied via the electricity supplier is broken (it does happen!) that there is still a route for current to flow to earth in fault situations.

I'm afraid your wrong on this point, the purpose of equipotential bonding (and supplementary bonding) is to tie all of the pipework (And any other items such as steelwork in large buildings) in the equipotential zone together to ensure that you can't get a touch voltage across the pipework of more than 50V. Under no circumstances would the IET want a Gas (or water) pipe used as an earth conductor although this could be a side effect if you had a TT supply and lost your earth rod or had a TNC-S/PME supply and lost your earth connection at your incoming supply postion.

Bear in mind that a TNC-S/PME supply has earth/neutral spiked to ground at various points along its length to complete prevent loss of earth if someone digs through a cable.

On the basis that most new houses have plastic incoming gas and water pipe if the IEE were trying to use these as earth conductors they would now stipulate that you have to provide your own dedicated earth rod as a secondary means of earthing which they don't unless:-

You have your own sub-station
You have you own on-site generation.

Interestingly they do recommend that you install an earth rod/array if you have a swimming pool on a TNC-S system but its not mandatory.

I was at a hospital yesterday where I had some main equipotential bonding installed to the incoming water, steam mains, medical gases, steelwork and lightning protection. The building is 35 years old and has never had any bonding before,

On the subject of the OP's house I would recommend they have a periodic inspection, if their installation was carried out to a previous edition of the IEE wiring regulations then it should be tested to that, i'm not old enough to know what the 15th edition has to say on the subject of main equipotentail bonding but any PIR report should test the building to the standard it was installed to and then advise where it doesn't meet current regulations.

It used to be that PIR reports had codes 1-4 where 1 was a serious problem requiring immediate rectification, 2 was less serious requring improvement, 3 was requires further investigation (something can't be found for example) and 4 was doesn not comply with the current edition of the IEE wiring regulations.

The codes have changed recently and i'm not upto speed with it now but bear in mind that just because you don't have RCCB/RCBO/RCD devices protecting every circuit in your house does not make you house unsafe, in fact the 17th edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations make a statement to this effect in the front of the regulations.

I always think of this like cars, my 1967 mini has no ABS, ESP, Airbags, impact bars, crumble zones etc. but its still safe to use and I can still drive it on the road and have used it every day but a modern car with all of these safety features is better. If when you had your MOT the tester told you your cars was unsafe because it didn't have ABS would he be correct? The answer is nn.

debtfree1day

they are advising me that I can go ahead with the kitchen regardles...using a new circuit...meaning that when I sort out the electrics the lights will be ok....

Thoughts?

debtfree1day

thanks flanker

So I want to get this done properly...I will find £2k - £3k if thats whats needed to make this a proper job and to be compliant, legal and regulatory pcuker - and safe!

BUT as I speak I have no kicthen, and a plasterer coming on Monday, my plan is to go ahead with kitchen on the basis the lights will be on different circuit and therefore wont need to be changed once I get the proper electical stuff done in what I guess will be 3 months time...

re INsurance, how do I know if the kitchen spotlights are notifiable under part b?

debtfree1day

no the guy who said to do electrics off seperate circuit for the kitchen, isnt part P - he uses a proper electricain for big work, like the rewire, but does his own socets and lighting work himself.

so if I use him, AND go ahead on Monday with the kitchen, even though I am getting all the electricals done properly 2/3 months time by registered, proper guy for Part P-i can invalidate my house insurance in the meantime...not a good idea:mad:

aaaah, wheres that whiskey?

fluffpot

Oh dear, Debt free - this has turned into a right old discussion! I expect you're probably as confused as when you started!

In my opinion, you could go ahead with the kitchen lighting work as a stand alone - BUT your last post has alarmed me! The electrician is wrong about this - work in a kitchen is notifiable and it sounds like your guy isn't registered but instead gets a 'mate' to sign off stuff when he believes it is required. It's more a case of if this guy isn't a proper sparks how can you be sure he's done it right, will be test it and issue you certificates? Not wanting to hold you up even more, perhaps you could tell him that you know he needs to give you a part P cert and so can his 'mate' come on board?

In answer to your other question, an electrician can carry out a PIR and I will have to agree to disagree with others who say it's not a good investment of a day of a spark's time. The problem with just getting a fuse board upgrade is that once it's started it has to be finished and if there are problems they will need to be fixed before the new board can be livened up - they may be minor, but they may not and then you're caught between a rock and a hard place!

The PIR could be carried out at any time, and I would seriously think about it before getting any plastering, decorating done in the rest of the house

Hope this is helpful and not confused the issue any more

Fluff

debtfree1day

Fluff

Thanks for post. Ok spoke to him, he is getting the proper sparky back BUT the proper sparky cant certificate one piece of work..i.e the kitchen lights he will onyl certificate the whole house for safety ?

he will charge £150 extra for new fuse board to do the kitchen lights and they will be eartehr and safety compliant etc etc

like you say rock n a hard palce, think I will go ahead....

debtfree1day

correction - IT WILL BE CERTIFICATED , its £38 or something for a certificate regardless of whether its one room or alot more, not alot of difference in price

BUT there you go...

Thats £600 odd pouunds for 8 spot lights in a ceiling

and about £2k of worry to come, hope mrs debt free is happy with the end product :)

fluffpot

Debt free - your sparky is talking carp about not certifying small jobs - there's definitely something fishy going on there. Plus as Andrew says £150 is way too cheap for a fuse board change. I charge a min of £350 (London though).

I feel for you as the job is upon you time wise, but loathe as I am to suggest it, how about you get him just to do the lights and then when you do the PIR/fuse board change/rewiring, you can get a proper electrician in and check the lights. BTW when have a a board change, the tests and certificate will cover all circuits (including the lights)