Starting again with heating

prunus

We have a detached bungalow, well insulated and double glazed. We are all electric and not on mains gas. We are reasonably happy with our economy 7 storage radiator heating but it is time to move on. We now want to heat 260 cubic metres of airspace.

Underfloor heating is out so, most probably, any new form of heating will have to be a wet system with radiators. I like the sound of Smiths Ecovector, fan assisted, low water content radiators. Supposedly very economical to run and quick to respond.

We are prepared to consider any form of central heating provided it is likely to be economical as possible, durable and trouble free.

So I'd like advice on everything from airsource heatpumps, combined heat and power units, biomass boilers, anthracite boilers, oil heating, and anything else somebody can think of. We have the space to store fuel and space in the garden for machinery. Starting again should give us scope to do things right....

I know this is a lot of advice to ask - perhaps someone knows of relevant comparison sites that could help.

And, once a decision is made, how to choose a good installation firm will come into it.

I do hope we can be helped on this.

Cardew

Why is it 'time to move on'?

Whatever replacement system you choose is going to cost several thousand pounds and you will probably never recover the costs.

I would firstly forget any form of heating with 'normal' electricity - other than heat pumps.

You also need to wait until the Government publishes details of their RHI(Renewable Heat Initiative) as that could have an influence on your choice.

Heat pumps would appear to be your most obvious choice, but aagain you should read the EST(Energy Saving Trust) study into heat pumps(both Air and Ground) as the results were very mixed and frankly disappointing.

If you can live with storage heating(many can't) I wouldn't dismiss getting the system upgraded if your heaters are old.

There is no easy 'one size fits all' solution; the EST will offer unbiased advice.

prunus

Hi Cardew,

We have seven storage radiators which draw a total of 91 amps. Add in the DHW and the other electrical stuff turning on at night, including us getting up for cups of tea, and we have, in the past, blown the cheap rate supply fuse. We now cope very well by not using things like the washing machine at night.

Central Networks wanted to install a three phase electricity supply but that also would have cost us many thousands of pounds.

What has prompted my questions has been a kefuffle with Scottish Power over my last bill. It was enormous and obviously wrong. Finally I found someone there who really looked into what had happened and it transpired that some of our meter readings had been transposed - day rate usage had been logged as night rate and vice versa. There were other things too and I can't tell you how difficult it's been getting it all put right.

Anyway, now it's sorted but Scottish Power's cost estimate of our next years elec usage is £1800! Now I calculate that it should be around £1200 but I'm not privy to their planned rate rises.

Now there's no rush about changing our heating system. But I do want to understand the alternatives in case £1800 proves realistic. So I'll google the EST and RHI. Thanks for putting me on to these.

If you know of anything else I should look at, I'd be grateful.

Freddie_Snowbits

Well, the cheapest heating would be mains gas, if this is available. A start would be here though

http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/energy/guides/home-heating-systems/

prunus

No, gas isn't available in our area. Great pity. That Which link looks interesting and I'll pursue it.

Thanks for putting me on to it.

Have a good night at the Dog and Duck.

Freddie_Snowbits

prunus wrote: »

Have a good night at the Dog and Duck.

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:Should be!

Mary_Hartnell

Underlying costs here:

http://www.nottenergy.com/energy-costs-comparison3

Ever had power cuts?

grahamc2003

Mary_Hartnell wrote: »

Ever had power cuts?

Quite an ironic and moot point considering over the last couple of weeks, tens of thousands of people with condensing boilers have been without heat.

The problem with most energy cost comparisons is that the analysis is usually quite superficial and incomplete.

You need, at least to my mind, the total lifetime costs for a true comparison. The much maligned storage heaters then appear not so bad afterall. I have 8 of them, new 20 years ago, and in that time I have had one minor fault (which costs me nothing except 30 minutes toi fix). Compare £0 over 20 years to the maintainance and replacement costs of those with condensing boilers, let alone the time and hassle of getting an annual service and having an engineer round - it sort of changes the cost comparison quite a bit.

I'd certainly consider ashps as one possibility to the op's problem. They can be installed in a modular fashion - just a single unit (ab £1500) for evaluation, then further units if found beneficial, for the air to air systems. (I'm almost certainly going to do this, but, unsurprisingly, my only reservation is the likely requirement for an approved annual service in order to qualify for the rhi, which is likely to wipe out any cost savings over my storage heaters).

Just like to add that there is no perfect heating system - they all have their particular pros and particular cons.

Cardew

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Quite an ironic and moot point considering over the last couple of weeks, tens of thousands of people with condensing boilers have been without heat.

The problem with most energy cost comparisons is that the analysis is usually quite superficial and incomplete.

You need, at least to my mind, the total lifetime costs for a true comparison. The much maligned storage heaters then appear not so bad afterall. I have 8 of them, new 20 years ago, and in that time I have had one minor fault (which costs me nothing except 30 minutes toi fix). Compare £0 over 20 years to the maintainance and replacement costs of those with condensing boilers, let alone the time and hassle of getting an annual service and having an engineer round - it sort of changes the cost comparison quite a bit.

I'd certainly consider ashps as one possibility to the op's problem. They can be installed in a modular fashion - just a single unit (ab £1500) for evaluation, then further units if found beneficial, for the air to air systems. (I'm almost certainly going to do this, but, unsurprisingly, my only reservation is the likely requirement for an approved annual service in order to qualify for the rhi, which is likely to wipe out any cost savings over my storage heaters).

Just like to add that there is no perfect heating system - they all have their particular pros and particular cons.

Totally agree!

In fact the storage heating, or even 'normal' electrical heating can make financial sense particularly in smaller properties.

The maintenance costs of gas CH can be horrific with modern condensing boilers and wipe out any advantage gained by the cheaper running costs of gas.

Another factor is that in spending two or three thousand pounds on a replacement boiler is an additional annual cost in lost interest - or paying more interest if borrowing.

Mary_Hartnell

gas boilers don't work without electricity too.

prunus

Thanks for the energy comparison link, Mary. Interesting, though it doesn't seem to include the economy 7 rates. Yes, we do occasionally have power cuts but all we do is to go round and see a friend for a few hours and then phone a neighbour to see if the cuts are over.

I agree with you, Graham. I'm convinced that in the long term elec storage radiators are economically viable. Over our long lifetimes we've had gas, coal, anthracite and oil central heating in various houses. The least troublesome of those was the anthracite Trianco boiler in the garage but, if I wasn't there, the wife couldn't cope. She can adjust the storage radiators easily, one of the reasons I put them in when we moved here.

I like your idea of installing one ASHP as a trial and hope you go ahead with it soon. Don't forget to post your results here, please.

If it wasn't for the fact our present system is on the edge of capacity, as previously outlined, and threatened price rises, I wouldn't consider changing. I'm now in the process of reading the meter weekly to work out my own estimate of what this years bills might amount to, which ought to help with perspective. Scots Power forecasts are computer driven which I distrust.

In addition, I could remove the two medium sized storage radiators in our lounge and substitute one large one, repositioned of course. This would reduce the overnight usage by 13amps, giving us more flexibility about the devices we can use then without blowing fuses. The occasional subsidiary heating in the evening in that room shouldn't amount to too much.

I'd like to put in a multi-fuel stove in that room but he wife has fits when I suggest it. This has nothing to do with economy, I just like them.

As a matter of interest, I have an old friend in a house he built himself 40 years ago. He is still using the original floor mounted gas boiler. He has always had it serviced professionally every year, by the same firm, which reckons the boiler will last a few years yet. His system hasn't been very troublesome at all - just leaks now and then as I recall. What will the view be in 40 years time of modern heating systems?