Investments - Gold, Silver etc,

smeagold

lvader wrote: »

But still below 2007 levels. So negative inflation over 3 years.

Thats disingenous 2008 was a crash where everything was sold right across the board(bar gov debt and the usd) while banks brokerage firms and investors sold all they had to stay above water in the face of a huge stocks crash. 2008 was the beginning of the new era. since the dow bottom at 666 everything has gone up in price, why? because of QE, currency debasement unpayable debts soverign risk and a collapsing financial system, everything tangible will continue to rise in price, I'm sure the stock market will too as its priced in depreciating currencies but hard assets is where you will find safety anything with counterparty risk should be shunned imo

jon3001

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

I must be psychic as I just knew it wouldn't take long for this story to get dragged into the discussion.

The point is that people are weighing the risks of holding valuables under their own control vs a third party custodian.

Individual safety deposits boxes (at banks) do have a history of being raided where crime is suspected. POCA is relatively recent (2002) and police have already demonstated a willingness to abuse this legislation to the detriment of innocent parties as the 2008 incident shows.

Although all this doesn't directly address your question it is of relevance to those who are considering their storage options.

DiggerUK

Sarah920, as you can see there are goldpahobes, and goldaphiles. My two grammes worth.
The World Gold Council is a trade body for those in the gold industry, they ain't gonna talk gold down. Good data source though.
You may book a profit buying at moment, worlds economies are going doolally, but in an exercise I did with a few other posters, it seems that over extended periods of time you will match inflation plus a bit on top.

Escholarship, UOC.....Homer Simpson bug eyes. :doh:

Elm are good prices, so is this outfit, it is in Sutton Coldfield (B'ham). they charge p&p on orders under 5K.
The amount you are considering buying can be covered on home contents insurance. Otherwise deed boxes, not safety deposit, is what you need. Change out of 50 pound at HSBC or Lloyds.

The geek chart was just off a commercial site, go here for more reliable data scroll down to the historical averages. You have made an impressive start to your research, but you need to get to the bottom of the 1980 spike with a more rounded understanding of why it happened.

Should also research paper gold such as miners and ETF's for your S&S ISA's; and keep your eyes open for NSI re issuing their Index Linked savings.

Best of fortune.

DavidHayton

smeagold wrote: »

Currencies are being debased and there's a flight of safety into hard assets like gold silver, energy and general commodities or has the massive inflation in the last 2 years escaped your notice?

Currencies are being debased and inflation will rise, so why not invest in public utilities? They are also inflation proofed (assuming that folk keep buying leccy and water) and also pay dividends. David

smeagold

DavidHayton wrote: »

Currencies are being debased and inflation will rise, so why not invest in public utilities? They are also inflation proofed (assuming that folk keep buying leccy and water) and also pay dividends. David

good idea. personally I prefer gold and silver but then I'm a gold bug but yes utilities would do it too, any commodity or energy supplier should be a target for a safe haven in an inflationary enviroment.

shaun_from_Africa

Individual safety deposits boxes (at banks) do have a history of being raided where crime is suspected.

And I will ask yet again.
Please provide some verifiable proof of where the UK government has raided and confiscated gold bullion legally held in the vaults of UK banks.

It's easy to state that there is a history of this happening, but far harder to actually provide proof of this claim.

jon3001

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

And I will ask yet again.
Please provide some verifiable proof of where the UK government has raided and confiscated gold bullion legally held in the vaults of UK banks.

No. Why are you asking yet again when I already told you I wasn't directly answering your question?

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

It's easy to state that there is a history of this happening, but far harder to actually provide proof of this claim.

I stated factors which should be used to assess the risk of using third party custodians against the risk of holding under one's own control. This is the real issue.

Ok, let's take this step-by-step...

1. "Individual safety deposits boxes (at banks) do have a history of being raided where crime is suspected". (e.g. vault at the HSBC Safety Deposit Centre in London raided)
This doesn't say "Individual safety deposits boxes (at banks) of legally held bullion have a history of being raided".

2. POCA was used in 2008 to raid safety deposit vaults at Safe Deposit Centres Ltd. Although they hold no banking license, they are FSA registered and subject to the same money laundering regulations as banks in order to conduct its safe deposit business.

3. Although the 2008 mass raid was used to target criminal gains, innocent parties were also affected.

http://cms.met.police.uk/news/arrests_and_charges/safety_deposit_centre_raids
Items found include:

• Four firearms [hand guns] including a large amount of ammunition
• Fraudulent passports, credit cards and cheque books
• Drugs including cannabis, crack cocaine and opiates
• A large number of gold ingots, bars, coins and dust
• Three paintings by 17th century Dutch artists depicting landscapes and still life subjects A 20th century portrait by a Russian artist and other artefacts.
• Child abuse images
• Large quantities of documentation that is vital to enable fraud and human trafficking
• A large amount of jewellery, much of which is believed to be legitimately stored by rightful owners

4. POCA places the burden of proof on the defendant to corroborate the provenance of their assets (rather than innocent until proven guilty).

5. People aren't always fastidious about record keeping of their assets. Even if you have a receipt, you have to be able to demonstrate where the money to purchase it came from.

For others maybe there isn't much of a paper-trail. E.g. the valuables had simply been in the family a long time or perhaps its what they brought with them as a refugee.

6. Whatever institution you use (whether a bank or other FSA-registered facility) and whatever experience you had of their rigour in implementing money laundering regulation at the time, you have no control of how rigoursly that will be applied in the future (Safe Deposit Centres Ltd had been in business for 20 years) . You also have no control of who else (e.g criminals) patronise that facility.

Bottom line: If you use a safety deposit centre (owned by a bank or other FSA-registered facility) to store your valuables (bullion or otherwise) then you run the risk of them being seized by the authorities through no fault of your own. You had better be able to prove where these valuables came from to satisfaction of the authorities. In the meantime you're deprived access to your valuables.

RDB

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

And I will ask yet again.
Please provide some verifiable proof of where the UK government has raided and confiscated gold bullion legally held in the vaults of UK banks.

It's easy to state that there is a history of this happening, but far harder to actually provide proof of this claim.

I remember it was only the USA that made it illegal to hold gold and silver right up to the time I was born.

If they suspected that there was gold in a private bank safety deposit box they would not think twice about breaking it open and taking the gold.

We are very lucky that at the moment we are free to buy gold and silver.

But I would have to agree take delivery and work out some safe storage that no one knows about or ever can find out about.