Other forums -- a warning

wolfers

alastairq wrote: »

They are simply following good commercial practice.

I believe in the free market and my economic politics could probably be described as right-wing (insofar as they're not left-wing) but I don't believe in an unfettered free market. I believe that the market needs to be regulated and I believe that business has a responsibility to the community in which it operates and from which it takes its profits.

We are not all the same. Some people have a good understanding of finances and financial products. Some people don't have that understanding. Some people cannot have that understanding. Some people have iron self-control. Some people do not.

Offering unsolicited credit to someone like my ex -- who, for his level of income, has a relatively high level of debt -- may be good business (though if he goes BR, it's very bad business) but I don't think it's ethical business.

I'm sufficiently cynical about the world to know (OK, believe) that there are people out there who are interested only in making big profits. They have zero ethics are don't care at all about who suffers. I think such people run companies like Capital One. They know that many people are weak and that, when offered a line of credit, they'll take it and spend it. Then the company will harvest fat profits on the huge interest (his is just under 30%). They won't care about the misery that may cause. And they'll defend their behaviour by pointing to individual responsibility and decrying any responsibility of their own.

Right or wrong, many people spend more than they should on credit. Fact. It's a reality of the world. Offering such people even more credit is attempting to profit from that sad state of affairs.

I'm sympathetic to the people I think of as victims of this because I know we're not all the same. I'm brilliant at maths. I have a first class degree in it. I'm lucky that way. I was born with that kind of mind. I don't go around calling people stupid because they can't solve differential equations in their head like I can.

We're all different. We have good points and bad points. Some people are financially illiterate and financially weak. Credit card companies knowingly prey on those people. We all suffer as a result. No-one wins, except the bosses of such companies.

alastairq

heck...an awful lot of people go out and buy cars that no knowledgeable person would touch with a barge pole...that's the power of advertising?

Some people even believe they are good drivers!

Ignorance is the nectar of the financial houses.

dmg24

wolfers wrote: »

I believe in the free market and my economic politics could probably be described as right-wing (insofar as they're not left-wing) but I don't believe in an unfettered free market. I believe that the market needs to be regulated and I believe that business has a responsibility to the community in which it operates and from which it takes its profits.

We are not all the same. Some people have a good understanding of finances and financial products. Some people don't have that understanding. Some people cannot have that understanding. Some people have iron self-control. Some people do not.

Offering unsolicited credit to someone like my ex -- who, for his level of income, has a relatively high level of debt -- may be good business (though if he goes BR, it's very bad business) but I don't think it's ethical business.

I'm sufficiently cynical about the world to know (OK, believe) that there are people out there who are interested only in making big profits. They have zero ethics are don't care at all about who suffers. I think such people run companies like Capital One. They know that many people are weak and that, when offered a line of credit, they'll take it and spend it. Then the company will harvest fat profits on the huge interest (his is just under 30%). They won't care about the misery that may cause. And they'll defend their behaviour by pointing to individual responsibility and decrying any responsibility of their own.

Right or wrong, many people spend more than they should on credit. Fact. It's a reality of the world. Offering such people even more credit is attempting to profit from that sad state of affairs.

I'm sympathetic to the people I think of as victims of this because I know we're not all the same. I'm brilliant at maths. I have a first class degree in it. I'm lucky that way. I was born with that kind of mind. I don't go around calling people stupid because they can't solve differential equations in their head like I can.

We're all different. We have good points and bad points. Some people are financially illiterate and financially weak. Credit card companies knowingly prey on those people. We all suffer as a result. No-one wins, except the bosses of such companies.

You seem to have a victim/ blame mindset. A sense of personality responsibility will get you much further.

alastairq

You seem to have a victim/ blame mindset. A sense of personality responsibility will get you much further.

This seems to be a prevalent mindset amongst most of our society?

If we all took upon ourselves a greater sense of 'personal responsibility', then those billions of dollars spent on advertising and product promotion...especially by the finance industry, would indeed become 'wasted' money....

A possibility I do not believe exists...in their eyes.

wolfers

I'm trying to remain in the spirit of this forum by not being argumentative, but I do want to make one point that appears to have been missed.

I have not at any point talked about my use of credit cards. I have talked about my ex and his credit cards. It somewhat irritates me to be patronised here and on the other forum by people telling me what I should and should not do or how I should or should not think.

It is unarguable that the credit industry, like the alcohol and tobacco and confectionary industries, preys on human weakness in order to make higher profits. It is a matter of public record that the tobacco industry lied to consumers to boost profits, for example.

And it is smug and patronising to hold one's self out as someone who is entirely unmoved by marketing and advertising, someone who always makes fully informed decisions about how and when they spend money and, indeed, someone who has never made a mistake because he can predict the future.

Capital One raised my ex's credit limit without being asked to do so because they want to increase their profits. They make the calculation that he will use the credit and pay the very high interest charges. Since my ex is a human being and not a robot he is likely to do what they hope and, as a result, he is likely to overextend himself. I have repeatedly said that we are responsible for our own actions. I am arguing here that business should take greater responsibility for its actions.

End of.

jamesd

wolfers wrote: »

It somewhat irritates me to be patronised here and on the other forum by people telling me what I should and should not do or how I should or should not think.

The other people weren't patronising you or telling you what to think, they were disagreeing with you.

It looks like a bad idea for you to try a serious discussion of the place of credit in society at the moment. Your own circumstances and this second topic suggest that it'd hurt you emotionally and not produce any gains for anyone involved.

You might consider how a topic like the one you started might draw people to this section to discuss your arguments on their merits. The inevitable discussions may well hurt you and others who are here for support with debt trouble, just as they did hurt you after they were moved. Hence the need for moderators to consider moving such discussion s elsewhere, lest they undermine the safety of this place. Don't stick a "free vodka" sign on the door to a 12 step program meeting room. It's unlikely to produce desirable results.

Best wishes for a good, at least as good as it can be, resolution to your own debt-related troubles.

gemini12

I dont normally post on here as thank goodness I am not in your position but I would only say one thing to all those who judge other.

Walk a mile in my shoes and then you might understand my position.
I have also recently been "flamed" in another section of the forum so I know it hurts but ignore them. They dont know you and I am sure you are grateful not to know them.

alastairq

The other people weren't patronising you or telling you what to think, they were disagreeing with you.

well, I've read the thread...and I noted a distinctly patronising tone to the responses.

Civilised argument I am happy with....


dismissive abuse I will not tolerate...especially when it is aimed at others who might not respond.

Personally, when I receive dismissive abuse, I am happy to take whatever is left of their argument and expose it for what it is....

I don't do abuse.....don't need to.....

They make the calculation that he will use the credit and pay the very high interest charges. Since my ex is a human being and not a robot he is likely to do what they hope and, as a result, he is likely to overextend himself.

And before anybody takes that statement, and screams personal responsibility..or self-discipline, I want to mention one simple word

PRESSURE!

Without the application of pressure, the finance industry would collapse...given that the market is saturated amongst those that can afford.

The industry as a whole spends a lot of money exerting pressure, for a desired outcome.

It must work, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

It applies throughout all walks of our sad society's life.

we are all suckers, one way or another....and there is no reason why we should be blamed for that.

ani_26

gemini12 wrote: »

I dont normally post on here as thank goodness I am not in your position but I would only say one thing to all those who judge other.

Walk a mile in my shoes and then you might understand my position.
I have also recently been "flamed" in another section of the forum so I know it hurts but ignore them. They dont know you and I am sure you are grateful not to know them.

Fair comment gemini12

jamesd

alastairq wrote: »

well, I've read the thread...and I noted a distinctly patronising tone to the responses.

Some were definitely unhelpful. Trouble was, that's what was invited by the thread topic and content.

Under a topic like "the place of credit in society" there might have been a more sensible discussion. That still would have left wolfers unhappy, because it's too easy for anyone familiar with the subject to counter the points being made after accepting the odd point like tobacco companies having been proved to lie.

I do wonder whether closing the topic instead of moving it might have been a better idea, though. I have reservations about moving out of a sheltered place into one that's at best a place for frank argument and at worst a shouting match. But this falls under the moderators aren't perfect and have limited time category, perhaps. It's usually a thankless task.