2 or 4 Winter Tyres

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

C_Crawford wrote: »

I understand fully the laws of Physics and what ABS does, I also drive in all weathers in different vehicles and never get stuck. I have also driven different cars on race tracks and rally tracks and never got stuck. But I will throw away my keys and listen to your advice as you know it all :-)

Then please tell me how ABS can prevent the rear end of a car from sliding sideways, I'd be very interested to know how this miracle is achieved.

C_Crawford

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers! wrote: »

Then please tell me how ABS can prevent the rear end of a car from sliding sideways, I'd be very interested to know how this miracle is achieved.

Listen I do not wish to get into some kind of Petty argument with you but in my car Ford Focus TDCI (2007) it is almost impossible in any weather (unless severely provoked) to get the rear sliding under braking. (Thanks to very clever ABS)
There has been some missunderstanding here, in cornering my car as well as most other FWD cars will understeer with the rear end only sliding if I lift off quickly mid bend and at silly speeds. Not speeds I would drive at on the road. This has nothing to do with ABS.
I also understand that by having more grip on the front I will be more prone to oversteer in snowy & Icy conditions, it's not rocket science. You may say I am foolish for only buying 2 winter tyres and that I'd be safer just leaving my Michelin Pilots on I can accept that but I am no fool :-)

PS: In my car under heavy braking in say wet conditions it appears to me that as soon as the back starts to move round it lets the front brakes off, possibly brakes the back a bit a bit to cancel this out. I could be wrong here but if I am I will stand corrected.

vaio

I’ve been running winter tyres on 4WD audis for the last 10, maybe fifteen years and I’d no more put winters on one end and summers on the other than I would have run radials on the front and crossply on the back in the ‘70s.

I’m not sure about your point that ABS (no matter how clever) will prevent problems as I’ve yet to come across a system that could deal well with snow/ice (I find ABS off is better)

The reason I wouldn’t run just two is not particularly to do with braking, where I think it get dangerous is when the car is subjected to sideways forces like cornering, grippy fronts and slidey backs is going to get you heading backwards towards the scenery and an insurance claim.

I think it’s all about balance, cars are designed and drivers learn with roughly similar levels of grip F & R and just as radial F crossply R is illegal because radials are twice as grippy as crossplys then I’d apply the same logic to winter F summer R (where the winters are maybe five or ten times grippier than summers if there is snow/ice on the ground.

If I was really really skint I might just run winters R and summer F as at least then I’d get easily controllable gentle understeer rather than bite-your-head-off snap oversteer. Obviously this last bit only applies to RWD cars as FWD with summer fronts is going to struggle to get moving at all (maybe the ultimate answer to the 2 v 4 debate)

C_Crawford

vaio wrote: »

I’ve been running winter tyres on 4WD audis for the last 10, maybe fifteen years and I’d no more put winters on one end and summers on the other than I would have run radials on the front and crossply on the back in the ‘70s.

I’m not sure about your point that ABS (no matter how clever) will prevent problems as I’ve yet to come across a system that could deal well with snow/ice (I find ABS off is better)

The reason I wouldn’t run just two is not particularly to do with braking, where I think it get dangerous is when the car is subjected to sideways forces like cornering, grippy fronts and slidey backs is going to get you heading backwards towards the scenery and an insurance claim.

I think it’s all about balance, cars are designed and drivers learn with roughly similar levels of grip F & R and just as radial F crossply R is illegal because radials are twice as grippy as crossplys then I’d apply the same logic to winter F summer R (where the winters are maybe five or ten times grippier than summers if there is snow/ice on the ground.

If I was really really skint I might just run winters R and summer F as at least then I’d get easily controllable gentle understeer rather than bite-your-head-off snap oversteer. Obviously this last bit only applies to RWD cars as FWD with summer fronts is going to struggle to get moving at all (maybe the ultimate answer to the 2 v 4 debate)

I understand all that you say here but I have bought 2 winter tyres to get me up my hill and home only. I will ellaborate, I stay 1 Mile from where I work and I have 2 corners to turn in a 30mph zone. Unfortunately it's all downhill to my work and uphill home. I'm hoping to buy another 2 tyres for the rear of my car next winter but for now getting home is my main priority.
Where I differ from other motorists is my driving experience and knowledge gained over many years on roads, racetracks and dirt tracks.
I am not stupid enough to assume driving a car with winter tyres on the front and normal tyres on the rear will be anything but hard to manage to an inexperienced driver.
Thank you for all your comments though as I have taken them all on board.

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

C_Crawford wrote: »

Listen I do not wish to get into some kind of Petty argument with you but in my car Ford Focus TDCI (2007) it is almost impossible in any weather (unless severely provoked) to get the rear sliding under braking. (Thanks to very clever ABS)
There has been some missunderstanding here, in cornering my car as well as most other FWD cars will understeer with the rear end only sliding if I lift off quickly mid bend and at silly speeds. Not speeds I would drive at on the road. This has nothing to do with ABS.
I also understand that by having more grip on the front I will be more prone to oversteer in snowy & Icy conditions, it's not rocket science. You may say I am foolish for only buying 2 winter tyres and that I'd be safer just leaving my Michelin Pilots on I can accept that but I am no fool :-)

PS: In my car under heavy braking in say wet conditions it appears to me that as soon as the back starts to move round it lets the front brakes off, possibly brakes the back a bit a bit to cancel this out. I could be wrong here but if I am I will stand corrected.

You're getting confused. If you're braking under conditions which offer poor grip, in a straight line, then with winter tyres on the front and all-weather tyres on the back, you risk the back of the car sliding out - even when braking in a straight line. Once that happens, the only thing that might correct the slide is opposite lock and a lot of power. Good luck to you if you have the skill to do that, most people don't, and it isn't something you'd want to deal with if you were approaching a junction.

ABS keeps the wheels from locking under braking, it does nothing to prevent a loss of traction, and also does nothing when that traction is lost to help you regain control. You're thinking of full traction control systems (not usually found on your average family saloon) but even still its much safer to use the correct tyre compound on each axle than to rely on a computer to get you out of trouble.

mikey72

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers! wrote: »

You're getting confused. If you're braking under conditions which offer poor grip, in a straight line, then with winter tyres on the front and all-weather tyres on the back, you risk the back of the car sliding out - even when braking in a straight line. Once that happens, the only thing that might correct the slide is opposite lock and a lot of power. Good luck to you if you have the skill to do that, most people don't, and it isn't something you'd want to deal with if you were approaching a junction.

ABS keeps the wheels from locking under braking, it does nothing to prevent a loss of traction, and also does nothing when that traction is lost to help you regain control. You're thinking of full traction control systems (not usually found on your average family saloon) but even still its much safer to use the correct tyre compound on each axle than to rely on a computer to get you out of trouble.

Opposite lock and a lot of power on snow and ice?
Hmmm, hope you don't drive near me.
(Possibly that's why you would keep losing the back)

skiddlydiddly

Pewpew-people have a budget to work to.If that budget only stretches to 2 tyres then your example above could also be compared to a car with 4 regular tyres on.If they tried to do the same braking maneouver then the chances are all 4 wheels would skid and they would still hit whatever they were braking for.

If people drive sensibly ie slowly and with some of the skills mentioned by bigjl then 2 tyres are fine.If they drive like a tool then they are going to crash just the same as if they had regular tyres on.

Personally I got a fair deal on 4 winter tyres and can pull away and brake much much better than before.The back end(fwd) will still kick out with all the bumps on the road due to compacted ansow and ice but I have done lots of snow driving so its no great surprise and I am ready for it.
Something also to bear in mind is that the braking on winter tyres in normal conditions is definitely inferior to regular tyres.

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

They don't compare at all, because one instance is unpredictable and the other is not. And frankly I don't care if people can or cannot afford winter tyres, that isn't my concern.

skiddlydiddly

Well whether its your concern or not thats how it is.

Both instances seem predictable to me btw and obviously to you too as you gave it as an example and understood mine.Maybe not to a lot of the muppets I've seen driving about as if its the middle of summer though.

Pew_Pew_Pew_Lasers!

Well that's fair enough I suppose. We can't even get people to put decent rubber on their cars in the best of conditions.