'The argument over student loans could kill the next generation's...' blog discussion

dave2

iansoady wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. We all benefit from having a better educated population - and if it's true that having a degree increases your earnings, then a progressive higher rate tax would ensure that those who have benefited most pay most. If we just retrieved half of the unpaid / evaded tax that is lost every year it would more than cover the cost.

In fact, all education under the age of say 21 should be free as well as attracting a maintenance grant. If people don't take it up at that age then it should be held for them to use at a later date.

People without degrees on high salaries may wail that it's unfair but I don't buy that. And by paying from a higher rate tax (say over £100,000 p.a) then the usual silly argument about low paid workers paying for others to be educated evaporates.

I agree with you but there's already the higher rate of tax (and the 50% rate too!).

Free education is a good example of the principle behind higher rates of taxes - it's extremely hard to think of anyone earning that kind of money who isn't benefiting from free education. Find a higher rate taxpayer who didn't go to university and I bet you'll find half a dozen people with degrees working for him, never mind their input into the economy and skills generally.

Anyway, a degree is barely worth anything by itself any more. All it does is keep the door open to the next level e.g. professional qualifications.

backfoot

I've thought long and hard about this.

In my opinion, University Education should be funded from general taxation. It's like many things in an organised forward thinking Society where you have to look at the overall picture and benefits, not just just one part that may not greatly affect you.

I don't use the NHS very much, but I have never begrudged my taxes going towards those people who need it. One day, it might be me. I haven't ever had much need to contact the Police but I am pleased they are there for those that do.

How can we afford it? Like we always have. The funding to the NHS and Schools has been ring fenced, why not Further Education.We will have to unearth another alternative, or delay the deficit reduction.In any event, if you believe the rhetoric that few students will have to pay back their student loans, then how is helping the current deficit? It will have little impact over the short term, if any, on the deficit. It's a much more regreesive long term policy.

From the individual students point of view, it is so demotivating. Starting out post uni life saddled with enormous debts on an ongoing basis, seems akin to the borrowing mess, which got the Country into the deficit in the first place. That's a good idea then, lets transfer it those future generations to struggle with, while the previous generation,like me, enjoyed the privilege and reaped the rewards.

Graduates and high earners already now pay it back through higher taxes. Why are we instituting a double taxation on them alone? Why is it alright for Clegg and Cameron to have reached the top of the tree on free education and not also, have to find these swathing new charges as part of the deficit reduction?

Finally from a political point of view, Clegg has comitted the cardinal sin. His main message was 'trust the LibDems'. One of his Core Manifesto pledges,if not the Core one, was to remove within six years all tuition fees.

I don't care how they dress it up under the Coalition Agreement, he has fundamentally reneged on the the thrust of the reasons why anyone would have voted for them. Only that allowed them enough seats to form part of a Government. How can they ever claim credibility again? :mad:

alihj

antonia1 wrote: »

Firstly, if you are happy for your daughter to study the hours full time, I assume you are one of the lucky families who can subsidise her while she's at uni because she would not be able to hold down a job and keep on top of her studies. Imagine if you could not afford to do so, but all that is left after accommodation and half-board is £50 per term (or £150 per year) to spend on books, transport, lunches.

Secondly, the system is different is Scotland and Wales because they have different governments than England. Each of the home nations has a budget and the Scottish and Welsh governments have decided to make savings elsewhere in order to prevent tuition fee rises.

I'm not one of the lucky families who can subsidise her - I'm stuck right in that group who pay for everything, get nothing, and ends up with no disposable income whatsoever. However, I will do everything I can to help her, as I don't want her to be £40,000 in debt as she starts out. That means I work harder and longer - what the govt wants me to do anyway...

alihj

rgoodger wrote: »

Why is the Student loan system linked to parents income. Surely, an 18 year old student is an adult as far as the goverment is concerned, and should therefore be legally assessed on their own income.

With the discrepancies in Student fees, depending where in the UK you live, we are endagering some serious ill feeling amongst our students. Two children can grow up either side of the Scottish border, and could attend the same schools. Have parents working in the same office and on the same rate of pay. Then sit next to each other on the same University course. One pays zero in Tuition Fees the other could pay from £10000 to £27000 for the three year course.

I have had one child through University and will have another through in a few years. They will both be responsible for there own fees. There is no problem with charging for the prospect of an enhanced education. But it does need to be totally fair for all UK students.

As a side issue, I do wonder if University lecturers/staff deserve their huge wages for the minimal time they put into students.

Absolutely! Either all UK students pay, or none.

roybranagan

I dont understand why newspapers have been "front paging" this topic for weeks yet haven't seen fit to publish such a concise explanation of how the new system compares with the old or did I miss it?

andy12345

Well I was going to consider myself cynical and write about the possibility that student loans are another way of using taxpayers money to benefit those who are already doing well ie keep the "rich" gravy train going for time eternal.

At least one MSE member sort of beat me to it.

When the millionaires in the cabinet went to university and got their free degree less people went, now more people go to uni (from the working class) it's time to pay!!!

All I have heard for the past week is how small the amount is that is paid off every month due to this change in student loan policy. The longer it takes to pay off the debt the bigger (and more expensive) the debt is due to the interest it will incur. Therefore the lowest paid graduates will pay more than the higher paid, sound familiar??

And the longer the millstone is round your neck!
Great start to life!!!

To add to the above, I am also wondering if an "effectively free until certificated and earning enough" education is a good thing. After all, if something has a lower value to start with, then people are more likely to take a chance when they don't have a chance, like no win no fee legal cases. I know it's a little bit different of course.

Anyway, where are the jobs for graduates these days? oops..

I suppose the Student grant system is also similar to a Quango (aka NDPB) excepting that Quangos could be accused of being based on an undeclared "cash for wigs", "cash for contracts" "cash for questions" and "cash for x" system.

Did I write cynical somewhere..:(

I think the banks should pay for university education lol, with taxpayers and unfairly "stolen" cash.

Pembroke

As a couple of side comments I hope that the increase in fees will at least weed out some of the more mickey mouse courses that were being offered recently when the previous government was trying to make everyone go to university and this type of course was being started purely to offer something for everyone, even those who didn't really want to be there.

Secondly whilst I applaud the Welsh Assembly gov. in supporting Welsh students I really hope they've thought it through and insist on some sort of contract, that is we pay for your training, you work for us in Wales for a set period after you pass your degree.

webwiz

Pembroke wrote: »

Secondly whilst I applaud the Welsh Assembly gov. in supporting Welsh students

I do not see how this can be legal under EU law and wait to see it challenged in the European Courts

Optimist

webwiz wrote: »

I do not see how this can be legal under EU law and wait to see it challenged in the European Courts

It is somewhat bizarre but not unlawful providing EU students are treated the same as students in the home country.

webwiz

Optimist wrote: »

It is somewhat bizarre but not unlawful providing EU students are treated the same as students in the home country.

Quite. And are not English students EU students?