We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
Constructive Dismissal
catkins
Posts: 5,703 Forumite
I know constructive dismissal is very difficult to prove and even though I have had a lot of hassle from my manager in the 3 years I have worked there most of it I cannot prove.
However, she knows I have always hated working every weekend. I was working weekdays but when staff faced redundancy we all had to reinterview (this was July 2009). There were 5 part timers and 5 new vacancies - all less hours than we were all doing but one included weekends. All 5 of us with the Manager sat and tried to work something out but the other 4 were all adamant they were not prepared to work weekends, not even alternate ones (2 because they have children and one because they said that was the only time they saw their partner). I said I was willing to work some (probably even alternate ones) but did not want to do all as then I would not see my husband. As we could not come to an agreement we all had to have interviews and surprise surprise I apparently came bottom (never believed this for a few reasons but could not prove it) and so the only job available to me was the one working weekends. Obviously I took it because I needed a job and did actually enjoy my job. The manager said she was sorry about it and said maybe in the future my days could change.
October 2009 one of the other 4 gave their notice in. I asked could I change to their days and was told no (no real reason given). They then gave this job to a Xmas temp.
Then a full time person left and I asked could I go fulltime as fulltimers only work 1 Sunday a month and 2 Saturdays. They said I would have to interview for it - in the past staff had gone from part time to full time and not had to interview but I was told the rules had changed. Interviewed for it and, again, surprise surprise did not get it. They gave it to a new person.
Since then they have let 3 part timers go fulltime - 2 did not have an interview and the 3rd did but no one else interviewed for the job so it was pretty much a foregone conclusion!
I never thought the manager particularly liked me but to me all this just proved it. She can be lovely to staff she likes but the others all think she is a nasty !!!!!.
Anyway then one of the original 4 people left to go on maternity leave for a year. Again I asked if I could do her days and was told no as it was to much mucking around! I said it would be for a year and then if she returned to work I would go back to my original days - told no. They took a new person on to cover the maternity leave. The manager went to the new person (I did not know this at the time) and said "If XXXX asks you to swap one of her weekend days for one of your weekdays tell her you can't work weekends". I asked the person and they said "no problem I will swop your Sunday". Went to manager to say can I swop Sunday with XXXX to be told "Oh she can't work Sundays". I replied "well she told me she can and will". Cue the manager being furious but I did stop my Sundays.
A year on the original staff members decided not to come back. Again I ask can I have her days. Told no, the maternity cover person is going to carry on with them.
July this year the maternity cover person gives notice and they tell me I will have to take my Sundays back. I again ask for the weekdays. I am told "Oh we are going to change the job so it includes a Sunday"!!! Everyone at work said to me that it was obviously to make sure I could not give up my Sundays. Anyway they take on a new member of staff and surprisingly it does not include Sundays - just 3 weekdays. They give the Sunday to an existing Saturday person who asked for more days.
Last week I asked for 2 weeks holiday next year and was told I could not take it because out of the 2 weeks one other person has one of the Saturdays off (the rules have recently changed to say only 1 person can be off at weekends). That means there is no possibility I can take holiday in July, August or the first 3 weeks of September. Feeling annoyed because I don't want to go on holiday later than this I said that in the New Year I was going to ask to give up my weekends (this was true I did not say it in temper as I am sick of never having a life. My husband works Mon to Fri long hours often leaving home at 7am and not returning until 9pm or even later and I work 3 weekdays and Sat and Sun. We never see each other and never really go anywhere as he is too tired in the week and I am not around at weekends.
I was told I could not give my weekends up as I am contracted to do them. Asked could I not have a new contract - no. Said two other people had given up their Sundays - could not comment on that. So I said I would be giving notice. They said "we hope you are not giving notice before Christmas"! That really was the last straw. Did they honestly think with their attitude I was going to be considerate enough to work Boxing Day (again), the Bank Holiday Monday, the Bank Holiday Tuesday, New Years Day, the Sunday and the Bank Holiday Monday? So I gave notice there and then - leaving Wed 22nd Dec.
Since then I have found out that the law is that you can give up Sundays by giving 3 months notice (so it looks to me like they are breaking the law on that alone). Also another member of staff has been given Boxing Day off (this was agreed before I gave notice so they will be well short now - oh dear what a shame) whereas when I asked could I work Boxing Day or New Years Day but not both I was told no.
Sorry this is so long but I wanted to get the facts down. There have been other incidents but these are the main ones.
However, she knows I have always hated working every weekend. I was working weekdays but when staff faced redundancy we all had to reinterview (this was July 2009). There were 5 part timers and 5 new vacancies - all less hours than we were all doing but one included weekends. All 5 of us with the Manager sat and tried to work something out but the other 4 were all adamant they were not prepared to work weekends, not even alternate ones (2 because they have children and one because they said that was the only time they saw their partner). I said I was willing to work some (probably even alternate ones) but did not want to do all as then I would not see my husband. As we could not come to an agreement we all had to have interviews and surprise surprise I apparently came bottom (never believed this for a few reasons but could not prove it) and so the only job available to me was the one working weekends. Obviously I took it because I needed a job and did actually enjoy my job. The manager said she was sorry about it and said maybe in the future my days could change.
October 2009 one of the other 4 gave their notice in. I asked could I change to their days and was told no (no real reason given). They then gave this job to a Xmas temp.
Then a full time person left and I asked could I go fulltime as fulltimers only work 1 Sunday a month and 2 Saturdays. They said I would have to interview for it - in the past staff had gone from part time to full time and not had to interview but I was told the rules had changed. Interviewed for it and, again, surprise surprise did not get it. They gave it to a new person.
Since then they have let 3 part timers go fulltime - 2 did not have an interview and the 3rd did but no one else interviewed for the job so it was pretty much a foregone conclusion!
I never thought the manager particularly liked me but to me all this just proved it. She can be lovely to staff she likes but the others all think she is a nasty !!!!!.
Anyway then one of the original 4 people left to go on maternity leave for a year. Again I asked if I could do her days and was told no as it was to much mucking around! I said it would be for a year and then if she returned to work I would go back to my original days - told no. They took a new person on to cover the maternity leave. The manager went to the new person (I did not know this at the time) and said "If XXXX asks you to swap one of her weekend days for one of your weekdays tell her you can't work weekends". I asked the person and they said "no problem I will swop your Sunday". Went to manager to say can I swop Sunday with XXXX to be told "Oh she can't work Sundays". I replied "well she told me she can and will". Cue the manager being furious but I did stop my Sundays.
A year on the original staff members decided not to come back. Again I ask can I have her days. Told no, the maternity cover person is going to carry on with them.
July this year the maternity cover person gives notice and they tell me I will have to take my Sundays back. I again ask for the weekdays. I am told "Oh we are going to change the job so it includes a Sunday"!!! Everyone at work said to me that it was obviously to make sure I could not give up my Sundays. Anyway they take on a new member of staff and surprisingly it does not include Sundays - just 3 weekdays. They give the Sunday to an existing Saturday person who asked for more days.
Last week I asked for 2 weeks holiday next year and was told I could not take it because out of the 2 weeks one other person has one of the Saturdays off (the rules have recently changed to say only 1 person can be off at weekends). That means there is no possibility I can take holiday in July, August or the first 3 weeks of September. Feeling annoyed because I don't want to go on holiday later than this I said that in the New Year I was going to ask to give up my weekends (this was true I did not say it in temper as I am sick of never having a life. My husband works Mon to Fri long hours often leaving home at 7am and not returning until 9pm or even later and I work 3 weekdays and Sat and Sun. We never see each other and never really go anywhere as he is too tired in the week and I am not around at weekends.
I was told I could not give my weekends up as I am contracted to do them. Asked could I not have a new contract - no. Said two other people had given up their Sundays - could not comment on that. So I said I would be giving notice. They said "we hope you are not giving notice before Christmas"! That really was the last straw. Did they honestly think with their attitude I was going to be considerate enough to work Boxing Day (again), the Bank Holiday Monday, the Bank Holiday Tuesday, New Years Day, the Sunday and the Bank Holiday Monday? So I gave notice there and then - leaving Wed 22nd Dec.
Since then I have found out that the law is that you can give up Sundays by giving 3 months notice (so it looks to me like they are breaking the law on that alone). Also another member of staff has been given Boxing Day off (this was agreed before I gave notice so they will be well short now - oh dear what a shame) whereas when I asked could I work Boxing Day or New Years Day but not both I was told no.
Sorry this is so long but I wanted to get the facts down. There have been other incidents but these are the main ones.
The world is over 4 billion years old and yet you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie
0
Comments
-
I am sorry to read you have been having such a hard time, I can't really offer any advice other than might be worth a free first hour with a solicitor, but did you ever actually raise a formal greivance in writing?0
-
I would raise a formal grievance in writing as Joanne has said - it seems quite obvious to me as a casual observer that this manager really does not want to accommodate your requests - and the reasons given are flimsy to say the least.
I think you have been perfectly reasonable in your requests to move to more suitable hours and really I think you have gone the "extra mile" in terms of not having ANY of your requests granted and still working there !
I think an appointment with a solicitor and some advice on putting together a grievance letter should be your first step
or - if you don't want to take that route immediately - don't ask the manager verbally if you can swap - put your request in writing and make him/her respond in writing, giving the reasons why you can't swap - that way you are starting to create a paper trail of your requests and the reasons for refusal - all of which could become very useful if you do decide that constructive dismissal is the way to go - you never know, putting a request in writing next time, might just force the issue and you may be successful!
good luck
Karen0 -
There is no point in putting a request to change days in writing as I have already given my notice in.
I think I will have to speak to a solicitor although I know a lot of solicitors do not deal with this sort of case. I think I have to start a grievance procedure but don't know how to do this. Is there a stand procedure or do I have to try and find out about my company's one? I don't really want to do this because I know my manager will just give me a really tough time and I am not very good at standing up for myself. Do I have to start one in order to even think of proceeding with a constructive dismissal case?
I also meant to say in my post that I have worked there for just over 3 years and in that time have always done all the extra hours the manager has asked me to (it amounts to a lot, almost every week in fact). I partly did it for the money but mainly to try and get into her good books (obviously did not work). We always have people off sick (supposedly our store has the worst sickness record across the whole country and also the highest leaving rate - wonder why?) Most other staff cannot or will not be flexible because they have children but I can. I normally do at least 6 hours extra every week. I have gone in on my days off, sometimes only receiving a phone call that morning because someone has gone sick.
The manager has never had any reason to not be happy with me. As I said I have put myself out to help them, I work hard at work - I know I do my job well and a lot of customers have sung my praises.The world is over 4 billion years old and yet you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie0 -
Fail to see how they forced you out when you applied and got a job working weekends. On the plus side a job is now open for someone who wants it.Barclaycard 3800
Nothing to do but hibernate till spring
0 -
It is clear that you no longer want to work there, especially as you have already given your notice - what would you want out of a grievance procedure?Gone ... or have I?0
-
Broken_hearted wrote: »Fail to see how they forced you out when you applied and got a job working weekends. On the plus side a job is now open for someone who wants it.
Did you even read my first post? I did not start off working weekends. I only took the weekend job as it was all I was offered when staff were facing redundancies. I accepted it because I liked my job and I needed the money. I hardly think the way I have been treated since is fair but maybe you do.The world is over 4 billion years old and yet you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie0 -
It is clear that you no longer want to work there, especially as you have already given your notice - what would you want out of a grievance procedure?
I thought you had to start a grievance procedure in order to claim constructive dismissal?
I do actually still want to work there but not every weekend. I didn't realise when I gave my notice in that by law they have to let me drop Sundays so it is now to late to ask to do this. I am sad at leaving. I like the job and the people I work with (except the manager). She is being petty in preferring to let me go than change my days. If it was a member of staff she liked I know damn well she would bend over backwards to accomodate their wishes.
I don't see how treating staff differently depending on whether you like them or not is fair or should be allowed.
The manager moans about working alternate weekends and then claims not to understand my problem with working every weekend?The world is over 4 billion years old and yet you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie0 -
I thought you had to start a grievance procedure in order to claim constructive dismissal?
I do actually still want to work there but not every weekend. I didn't realise when I gave my notice in that by law they have to let me drop Sundays so it is now to late to ask to do this. I am sad at leaving. I like the job and the people I work with (except the manager). She is being petty in preferring to let me go than change my days. If it was a member of staff she liked I know damn well she would bend over backwards to accomodate their wishes.
I don't see how treating staff differently depending on whether you like them or not is fair or should be allowed.
The manager moans about working alternate weekends and then claims not to understand my problem with working every weekend?
If you issue a grievance you need to work with them to find a suitable solution, it is not just a 'tick in the box' towards a claim.
You do realise that if you no longer do Sundays they do not have to find you more hours elsewhere?
I cannot see any grounds for constructive dismissal, all I can see is a clash of personalities. Likely outcomes from a grievance would be mediation between you and your manager and/ or allowing you to drop your Sundays. Even with this, the fact is that you have given your notice, and they do not have to allow you to revoke it.Gone ... or have I?0 -
Do you have a head office? Lawyer's letter to the personnel director would be a good starting point.
Not sure if you have a good case for constructive dismissal, anyone with a brain can see you've been treated unfairlyHope over Fear. #VoteYes0 -
If you issue a grievance you need to work with them to find a suitable solution, it is not just a 'tick in the box' towards a claim.
You do realise that if you no longer do Sundays they do not have to find you more hours elsewhere?
I cannot see any grounds for constructive dismissal, all I can see is a clash of personalities. Likely outcomes from a grievance would be mediation between you and your manager and/ or allowing you to drop your Sundays. Even with this, the fact is that you have given your notice, and they do not have to allow you to revoke it.
It is not possible to find a suitable solution as I have given notice. They would not let me rescind it even if I wanted to. I did not even think about constructive dismissal until I found out that by law they cannot stop be giving up Sundays. They have stopped me so surely they are breaking the law?
Of course I realise if I give up Sundays they do not have to give me any hours elsewhere. I would be perfectly happy working 3 days a week although as I said, they always ask me to do extra hours so I would probably not really lose out anyway.
You say you all you see is a clash of personalities - what when I describe how different she has been to me than other staff? So because she does not like me she can make one rule for me and one rule for everyone else?
Even if it were just down to a clash of personalities - there is an awful lot of clashing. Most staff don't get on with her. As I said we have the highest staff turnover of any store in the country and I am talking a large company with over 300 stores and almost all of the staff that have left have said it was due to the managerThe world is over 4 billion years old and yet you somehow managed to exist at the same time as David Bowie0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 349.6K Banking & Borrowing
- 252.6K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 452.9K Spending & Discounts
- 242.6K Work, Benefits & Business
- 619.3K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 176.3K Life & Family
- 255.5K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards