RPI to CPI Early Day Motion 1032

Old_Slaphead

JohnB47 wrote: »

A question for anyone employed in the private sector: What "mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian" did you organise or take part in "when those in the private sector were being shafted"?

Secondly - it seems to me that anyone currently employed in the private sector is being really shortsighted in respect of this issue. As has been mentioned before, if the Government gets away with using CPI for uprating public pensions, it won't be long before they're using it for everything (that suits them, that is). That means that employers will jump on the bandwagon and will start using CPI figures as the basis for wage negotiations, with the result that public and private sector workers will be progressively worse off because CPI is simply not the most representative measure of inflation available. It just happens to be the lowest. Can't they see that?

Equitable Life

Why is anyone worse off if everyone is using CPI for all indexing - who's being penalised ? Eventually it will lead to lower inflation.

bendix

JohnB47 wrote: »

Secondly - it seems to me that anyone currently employed in the private sector is being really shortsighted in respect of this issue. As has been mentioned before, if the Government gets away with using CPI for uprating public pensions, it won't be long before they're using it for everything (that suits them, that is). That means that employers will jump on the bandwagon and will start using CPI figures as the basis for wage negotiations, with the result that public and private sector workers will be progressively worse off because CPI is simply not the most representative measure of inflation available. It just happens to be the lowest. Can't they see that?

.

Huh? Economics is not your strongest subject, is it?

If all pay claims, benefit rises, pension rises are negotiated on the basis of a CPI which is lower, surely that would mean that wage and supply inflation would be limited to that lower amount too.

You can't have it both ways.

bendix

MEY wrote: »

Fair point Bendix. Most people take action when they are affected. It is a natural response. How many times have we seen charities set up by people after a major event hits them? Anthony Nolan, Susie Lamplugh, anti-drink drive camapaigners wanting more severe penalties, etc., etc. That said, it doesn't have any bearing on the justice or injustice of something. We cannot all fight everyone elses battles all of the time. There would be no time for living. It doesn't mean we don't have any sympathy for their views however. Don't seem to recall much noise from those in the private sector when the money rolled in yet a good many public servants' wages were lower than in the private sector (some still are).
What galls me about so many holy Joes in the private sector though is how many get bonuses even down the chain, and share options which are/were not available to public sector employees. Never any mention of this. I wonder why? It's always the same old lie that public equals fiscal drag, private is wonderful, dynamic and value for money. Neither of those statements are true but the arguments are often presented as such.
As I have said before, the point of this thread is about EDM 1032 and related business, not an opportunity for disparaging the public sector.
And it ill behoves anyone in the private sector to use the phrase, ..... "it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays." Who do you think is paying for your pensions or investments? A fairy godmother? It is costed in to your products and services. Ultimately someone else is paying. It's all part of the pyramid scheme of capitalism, for better or for worse. Maybe you should approach the fund managers over why private pensions can be such lousy value. Oh, and by the way. The government is/was our employer. We accepted those employment and pension terms. Largesse has nothing to do with it. Just more meaningless, emotive language. If you feel that they have been too free with public money, how about rattling their cage, instead of ours? Meanwhile if you actually believe that CPI is a better measure of personal inflation than RPI, please let us know why. Like it or lump it, that's the issue.

LMAO . . A typical public sector perception of life in the private sector - one embellished with huge salaries, bonuses for the lowliest workers and share options for everyone.

Good grief.

If you think this is a typical private sector environment, you're even more removed from the real world than I thought.

FACT: private sector salaries are considerably lower than equivalent salaries in the public sector and have been for several years. Add in pension rights, working conditions etc, and the disparity is even greater.

Don't expect ANY sympathy from the private sector in your noble fight.

Ripoff_2

bendix wrote: »

You're wasting your time Slaphead. These guys are only animated now that some perceived gross outrage has been inflicted on them; I didn't see them organising mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian (where else?) when those in the private sector were being shafted.

But it's typical of the mentality of those whose livelihood depends on the largesse of the government - it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays."

Bendix, I am sorry but you are missing the point entirely.

This is not about public verses private and issues to do with that.

This is about RIGHT and WRONG.

Ignore who gets affected by this change for one minute, think, is it right to change pension indexing for anyone to a measure that does not measure pension indexing correctly and reduces their income knowingly? Isn't that theft?.

Then think again, is it right to promote the change saying it is a better measure of pension indexing when you know that is not correct. Isn't that decitful?

Then think again is it right to ignore professional advice on this change and impliment it any way, even when the professionals are saying it is wrong to do so. Isn't that dishonest?

now think again, is it right to reduce accrued benefits by this measure and break the fundimental principals of trust. Isn't that betrayal?

and finally if you think that it is right, then.........

think long and very hard.

That would mean that any Government could change anything they liked in the future, just ignore all protocol and advice and do it any way. It wouldn't matter whether that was in the private sector or the public sector. You may well find that you personally would be on the end of some very harsh Government wrongs indeed.

It wouldn't have to be this Government by the way it could well be another Government, that you didn't vote for.

Be very very careful not to confuse this issue with others, the action by this Government is fundimnetally wrong and a betrayal of the basic ethos of pension provision, especially for pensions in payment and accrued benefits either in the public or private sector, many by the way who ARE being affected by this change.

This is a dishonest, decitful act of betrayal by this Government that steals from the majority of pensioners, public and private.

If they get away with a change of this magnitude without full understanding of the implications then what else will they get away with that perhaps YOU don't agree with?

You see this is a FIGHT against Right and Wrong.

MEY_3

"Bendix", Well cherry-picked! Can't see where I said that all private sector workers were on huge salaries. Didn't say all in the lowliest paid occupations were getting bonuses, though they do happen. Didn't say that everyone got share options either. Just that these things happen but are seldom mentioned in the great "them and us" debate.

Public sector occupations cover as wide a range of levels and types as those in the private sector. I'm sure that there is evidence that some pay rates are greater and some lower comparing like for like. Pension rights were the benefit that attracted many when pay was lower. It still is below a living wage for many.

If your "fact" is "fact", "private sector salaries are considerably lower than equivalent salaries in the public sector and have been for several years. Add in pension rights, working conditions etc, and the disparity is even greater", it just reinforces to my mind that the public sector over many years has managed to gain some reasonable improvements whilst many in the private sector have just been screwing their employees to the floor as those at the top have increased their wealth. Not much to brag about there in my book.

I don't think we are looking for any sympathy from the private sector. Don't recall that ever being said - but we are looking for support for those who are linked to public sector pay legislation but in private schemes, and Ripoff is demonstrating that the effects of using a flawed index will eventually hit all those at the bottom of the heap.

You accuse me of having a typical public sector perception of life in the private sector. My perception is that private sector employees at the bottom of the chain are poorly rewarded, offered little by way of real employment protection, not valued, and often "blackmailed" using an undue sense of duty/responsibility to the employer. I've worked in both sectors. That's based on my experience, not just perception.

I suggest that your perception of the public sector is generally awry. What's that based on?

One final point though, like many private sector evangelists, what you appear to be advocating is not a levelling up to reasonable employment terms and standards, but a levelling down to the worst (cheapest) that can be obtained. Instead of saying, "You are lucky so keep quiet", you should perhaps be saying, "What can be done to raise pay and conditions for our employees". The good old politics of envy at work again. Who ever said that that was a Socialist outlook?! And you have the temerity to say, "Good Grief" to me!!!

Now can we return to the point of the thread , please?

Interested_Taxpayer

MEY wrote: »

Now can we return to the point of the thread , please?

Quite. Now off to bed you go Old Slaphead and an early flight to Thailand for you bendix.

On with the fight against wrong doing.

JohnB47

bendix wrote: »

Huh? Economics is not your strongest subject, is it?

I'm always waiting for this point in any discussion - personal insult. Those having to resort to that have lost the argument.

JohnB47

bendix

JohnB47 wrote: »

I'm always waiting for this point in any discussion - personal insult. Those having to resort to that have lost the argument.

JohnB47

Explain to me how my point isn't right? If the government and business switches to increasing pensions / salaries by CPI instead of RPI, then future inflation will surely be CPI. Ergo, absolutely no impact in the real world.

You're getting your collective knickers in a twist over nothing.

It's strikingly obvious.

Can you refute it?

bendix

Ripoff wrote: »

You see this is a FIGHT against Right and Wrong.

Not in my book it's not.

But, then again, I don't really care that much about your pension. You should have taken care of it yourself ;-)

bendix

MEY wrote: »

"
I suggest that your perception of the public sector is generally awry. What's that based on?

?

Blind prejudice.

I also have a theory that all public sector workers wear cardigans for work, and have pens in their shirt pockets.

I've yet to be proven wrong.