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RPI to CPI Early Day Motion 1032
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The basic state pension is moving to the better of 2.5%, RPI(soon to be CPI) and earnings
Just to clarify further, the basic state pension is being paid at RPI 4.6% for 2011 and then in 2012 it will be either, 2.5%, CPI or average wage %. This is the so called tripple lock. However, it could well meant that in 2012, RPI is greater than average wage%, CPI and 2.5% thus the pension could well be lower than it othewise would have been under RPI in 2012.
The indexing for many private and public pensions is set by Government under the statatory indexing per year and this has been RPI for the past 38 years, as this is the recognised UK domestic inflation rate but from April 2011 the Government wants to move this to the lesser CPI which is not the UK domestic inflation rate. See the posts for greater detail.
Just to add one point here, for pension indexing the Government is going to use the lessor CPI as the inflation rate but for petrol inflation increases it is using RPI, now then you tell me why on earth would they do that if they now think CPI is the inflation rate? Could it be that CPI at 3.3% and RPI at 4.7% has something to do with it?
Don't forget once CPI becomes used as the normal inflation rate, which it isn't, then wage increases will soon follow therefore in time everyone has a deminished income workers or pensioners, we all get poorer due to inflation not being calculated right. But the Government will use the higher RPI for price increases, watch for the rise in petrol/car tax etc in the budget when they annouce the inflation increases, I bet it will be at RPI!!
The British people are being conned by this change and need to wake up to that fact!0 -
The British people are being conned by this change and need to wake up to that fact!
Ripoff, if the British people as a whole are being conned then who's benefiting ?
The Gov't could easily link petrol increases to CPI and uplift the accelerator or duty to compensate should it choose - no-one would be much the wiser.
If CPI becomes the 'norm' for all increases (wages, pensions, benefits etc) won't that mean, in the long run, inflation will trend down to this level?0 -
Old_Slaphead wrote: »Ripoff, if the British people as a whole are being conned then who's benefiting ?
The Gov't could easily link petrol increases to CPI and uplift the accelerator or duty to compensate should it choose - no-one would be much the wiser.
If CPI becomes the 'norm' for all increases (wages, pensions, benefits etc) won't that mean, in the long run, inflation will trend down to this level?
You're wasting your time Slaphead. These guys are only animated now that some perceived gross outrage has been inflicted on them; I didn't see them organising mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian (where else?) when those in the private sector were being shafted.
But it's typical of the mentality of those whose livelihood depends on the largesse of the government - it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays."0 -
Old_Slaphead wrote: »Ripoff, if the British people as a whole are being conned then who's benefiting ?
The Gov't could easily link petrol increases to CPI and uplift the accelerator or duty to compensate should it choose - no-one would be much the wiser.
If CPI becomes the 'norm' for all increases (wages, pensions, benefits etc) won't that mean, in the long run, inflation will trend down to this level?
Old Slaphead I thought you were in hibernation?
It certainly will not be the poor who will benefit, or should I say the least well off......Question: who always benefits from these type of con tricks?...Point to ponder: during this downturn the richest people have increased their wealth by 20%.....I don't think I need to say more.
Yes the Government could link to CPI for uplifts on duty etc but what I am saying is that they have not done so.
Over time Inflation will not be at the same level as CPI because CPI does not currently measure the true UK inflation rate, it is so flawed that in the real world the actual inflation could well rise faster than CPI thus over time the difference may well narrow but until CPI measures the correct items for the true inflation rate then it can't become the inflation rate.
I have no problem with a rational debate and acceptance of a new measure, say CPIh or RPIx as long as it does what it is supposed to do and that is measure the true UK domestic inflation as accurately as possible.
RPI has been accepted as this measure for 38 years. If this is no longer valid then the Government has to discuss and debate a new measure not bring in a measure that does not measure the true UK inflation rate, just because it can.
They know CPI does not do this and they have been told by professionals and alike that that is the case.
By the way it will take in excess of 15 years before any narrowing will have an effect, the Governments own documents show that, so for 15 years plus people will be having reduced incomes and a far lower standard of living, with the poor being hit the hardest.
Lets assume the deficit is managed down in 10 years people will still be paying the price for many years after then and because CPI can never be the UK inflation rate in it's present form, they will be paying the price for this change for life!0 -
Bendix, just like your washing machine namesake, go around and around and around...... with the same old spin :rotfl:You're wasting your time Slaphead. These guys are only animated now that some perceived gross outrage has been inflicted on them; I didn't see them organising mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian (where else?) when those in the private sector were being shafted.
But it's typical of the mentality of those whose livelihood depends on the largesse of the government - it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays."0 -
You're wasting your time Slaphead. These guys are only animated now that some perceived gross outrage has been inflicted on them; I didn't see them organising mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian (where else?) when those in the private sector were being shafted.
But it's typical of the mentality of those whose livelihood depends on the largesse of the government - it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays."
A question for anyone employed in the private sector: What "mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian" did you organise or take part in "when those in the private sector were being shafted"?
Secondly - it seems to me that anyone currently employed in the private sector is being really shortsighted in respect of this issue. As has been mentioned before, if the Government gets away with using CPI for uprating public pensions, it won't be long before they're using it for everything (that suits them, that is). That means that employers will jump on the bandwagon and will start using CPI figures as the basis for wage negotiations, with the result that public and private sector workers will be progressively worse off because CPI is simply not the most representative measure of inflation available. It just happens to be the lowest. Can't they see that?
It seems that some people can't wait for the change from RPI to CPI to be agreed because they think the public sector will be the only ones affected and they deserve a good kicking.
They should be careful what they wish for.0 -
Fair point Bendix. Most people take action when they are affected. It is a natural response. How many times have we seen charities set up by people after a major event hits them? Anthony Nolan, Susie Lamplugh, anti-drink drive camapaigners wanting more severe penalties, etc., etc. That said, it doesn't have any bearing on the justice or injustice of something. We cannot all fight everyone elses battles all of the time. There would be no time for living. It doesn't mean we don't have any sympathy for their views however. Don't seem to recall much noise from those in the private sector when the money rolled in yet a good many public servants' wages were lower than in the private sector (some still are).
What galls me about so many holy Joes in the private sector though is how many get bonuses even down the chain, and share options which are/were not available to public sector employees. Never any mention of this. I wonder why? It's always the same old lie that public equals fiscal drag, private is wonderful, dynamic and value for money. Neither of those statements are true but the arguments are often presented as such.
As I have said before, the point of this thread is about EDM 1032 and related business, not an opportunity for disparaging the public sector.
And it ill behoves anyone in the private sector to use the phrase, ..... "it's only 'we're all in it together, so long as it's all about me, me, me and someone else pays." Who do you think is paying for your pensions or investments? A fairy godmother? It is costed in to your products and services. Ultimately someone else is paying. It's all part of the pyramid scheme of capitalism, for better or for worse. Maybe you should approach the fund managers over why private pensions can be such lousy value. Oh, and by the way. The government is/was our employer. We accepted those employment and pension terms. Largesse has nothing to do with it. Just more meaningless, emotive language. If you feel that they have been too free with public money, how about rattling their cage, instead of ours? Meanwhile if you actually believe that CPI is a better measure of personal inflation than RPI, please let us know why. Like it or lump it, that's the issue.0 -
Old Slaphead I thought you were in hibernation?
It certainly will not be the poor who will benefit, or should I say the least well off......Question: who always benefits from these type of con tricks?...Point to ponder: during this downturn the richest people have increased their wealth by 20%.....I don't think I need to say more.
I keep getting woken up by provocative comments.
Do you really think it's the poor who are being penalised by the RPI/CPI issue?
The biggest sufferers will be those on large pensions ie MPs, doctors, senior managers etc and those with excessively early retirement options at 50/55/60 (some who self interestedly post on this thread).
The ones that will not be affected are those with DC benefits, those with no pension provision and those on DB benefits but with low accruals - ie the poorest!
RPI/CPI will have no effect on the rich vs poor debate - don't delude yourself. The rich will always look after themselves and there will still be poor people - no matter what. The past 20/30 years when RPI was the index of choice has shown that it doesn't reduce the divide.
I endorse Bendix's view that you've only started protesting now that there's a little pain inflicted on you - oblivious to what's been happening in the rest of the pension arena for a long time.
I applaud your campaign on this issue but please don't broaden it out to I'm doing this on behalf of the whole country because for the extra cost of RPI over CPI has to be paid for and it will ultimately be paid for by the poorest either in terms of jobs or services.0 -
You're wasting your time Slaphead. These guys are only animated now that some perceived gross outrage has been inflicted on them; I didn't see them organising mass action or letters to ministers or the Guardian (where else?) when those in the private sector were being shafted.
Where's markLV when you really need him :eek:0
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