RPI to CPI Early Day Motion 1032

BoxerfanUK

Stargazer57 wrote: »

The capital value today of any given index-linked pension will be of the order of double what it was when employment commenced. In part this is because life expectancy has improved, but an equally significant factor has been the rising cost of buying in advance a stream of index-linked income for a constant period.

Public sector workers are blissfully unaware of this because, for most of them, the terms of their pension schemes have remained unchanged for existing employees. Combined contribution rates (from employee and employer) are still of the order of 20% of pay, but on the mark-to-market terms now required in the private sector something close to 40% of pay would be needed.

Now you and the the other beneficiaries may say you don't care. You think you have a promise which should be honoured. But I say you are getting about double (in value) what you expected, so you don't have a moral case. You may have a legal one, but I assume the Government has taken advice on it.

Now I've got a question for you. The public sector unions all employ pension specialists. They will all have known for years that the phraseology in the pension scheme rules governing pension increases will not have provided as much comfort as in a typical private sector scheme because it referred to statute rather than to the RPI directly. Why didn't they negotiate to change this? Why wait until the change is made and only then complain about it? Were they perhaps worried that if they drew attention to the weakness of the guarantee that change would actually be precipitated?

Hmmm, would love to answer you but I think MEY has answered far better than I ever could.

Would you feel better If I said that if/when I reach the point when the originally planned 'cost' to the taxpayer all those years ago was about to be reached, that I did the 'moral' thing and took myself off to Switzerland to be prematurely 'expired'? I would hate to be a burden for more than a day longer than neccessary.

The ones I really feel sorry for are the ones that expire way BEFORE they reach that magic taxpayers number that you harp on about.....Should they not get an 'advance' to spend as they like in anticipation of an early expiry?

Swings and roundabouts methinks

MEY_3

"Stargazer57",

I'm not trying to fall out with you. I said you still don't get it because you still didn't get it. My point, made previously, before these last couple of mails, was that your viewpoint is from a different perspective to that of public and ex-public service pensioners and prospective pensioners and that you were still talking of the pensions being twice the value of what was expected by the recipients. I've endeavoured to explain to you that isn't how Joe Bloggs the new employee would have thought about it years back. You are looking back using hindsight. The focus on pensions just wasn't the same 20+ years ago. Public service pensioners had a very easy time of it (or so they thought). They were given a booklet or had the scheme outlined to them and joined up or not. They weren't making the calculations that you, a private pension scheme investor I assume, may have had to make in your working life. That's my point.
I genuinely appreciate the point you make but it isn't a dissenting view at all but on a different issue. The real issue is, regardless of how over-generous you believe the pension terms to be, the index for uplifts has changed. You can argue that the change to CPI is justified and fair and why you believe that to be the case. You can say that you disagree with the EDM. But you wouldn't have had to explain to "BoxerfanUK" if you hadn't introduced the red herring re pension values and persisted with it. Are you saying that if the value of pensions were halved at a stroke then you'd have more sympathy for the Civil Service related pensioners over RPI v CPI?
The argument pure and simple is the government have changed to a new index which is less accurate than the previous and not designed for utilisation in the way it has been by common consent. The EDM seeks a suspension of the change to first examine its impact. Pension members of schemes linked to the Civil Service scheme/Acts appear to have never been informed that their schemes were not linked to RPI specifically and feel aggrieved and wish to take issue with all the parties concerned. More widely, other affected groups may feel they wish to challenge the government too. That's all.

Ripoff_2

KMK wrote: »

I have tried to complain to both my MP and also to Steve Webb about CPI v RPI. My MP (Lib Dem) sent back a rambling letter trying to justify CPI, referring at one point to how it would benefit pensioners in retirement homes. He lost me there! He will not sign the EDM.

I also contacted Steve Webb who passed on my e mail to the DWP and I got another rambling reply about how state pensions are indexed to September's figures, when I had asked about public sector pensions being linked to CPI. Webb did not even reply.

Do they read the letters Do they care? What on earth can we do now that they seem to be in government for the forseeable future? Is it a done deal?

No it is not a done deal, the first vote on this is in March and so far nothing has been passed by parliament. Hence, why it is important to get as many people as possible to write to Steve Webb and to their own MP's to sign EDM 1032 before then.

The more people that take action by writing a letter the bigger the impact on them, irrespective of what they write back. DO NOT BE PUT OFF BY THEIR POOR RESPONSES. This is designed to grind you down, make you go away, don't let them get away with this, keep fighting, keep putting the case, keep up the pressure, spread the word to family and friends get them to write.

There is also now a facebook page called "Stop the change from RPI to CPI for pensioner indexing" to further the debate and to spread the word. Please use it.

Interested_Taxpayer

MEY wrote: »

"Stargazer57",
The argument pure and simple is the government have changed to a new index which is less accurate than the previous and not designed for utilisation in the way it has been by common consent. The EDM seeks a suspension of the change to first examine its impact.

Well done MEY. This sums it up perfectly.

Ripoff_2

Any debate or issue will have varying views and disagreements but lets get back to basics on this and that is "This action will further diminish the trust between Government and people when after 38 years of using RPI the Government can retrospectively degrade pensions in payment by simply changing the indexation method."

The Government has not won the argument for this change and has not consulted with all concerned before proposing to make a change of this magnitude. They seem to be changing the indexing method because they can. They have done no impact analysis, they just say it's a better measure of pensioner inflation but when challenged to prove that is the case, they fail to do so. Last month alone proved them wrong on that issue when RPIx which excludes mortgage interest payments, (their main justification for the change to CPI being that CPI excludes mortgage interest payments and therefore more reflective of pensioner inflation) was exactly the same as RPI, it's just nonsense, their argument fell at the first hurdle. They are trying to sell a concept that even the RSS and the ONS say is not correct and they are the professionals on this issue.

Hence the EDM is calling for a re-think, a check if you like and asking "is this the Right thing to do", what are the implications for people, lets make sure before this act is put into law that it is the RIGHT thing to do, that's all.

There is a danger here that workers of the future will not take out pensions if they know the Government can just come along, change the indexing and the terms of their pensions at a whim. Pensions are a long term investment and as such should only be changed or amended after in-depth discussions and agreements, not like this by a Government that appears to believe that it can do what it likes, when it likes, because it's the Government. That is not a Government that is more akin to a dictatorship.

As I have said before this is a matter of Right and Wrong. Is it right that any Government, this one or any future one, can alter the UK Domestic Inflation measure from the recognised standard of 38 years, to a measure that it knows is flawed and has many missing measures just because it can, that surely can not be right. To accept that would set a very dangerous precedent.

Interested_Taxpayer

Ripoff wrote: »

No it is not a done deal, the first vote on this is in March and so far nothing has been passed by parliament. Hence, why it is important to get as many people as possible to write to Steve Webb and to their own MP's to sign EDM 1032 before then.

The more people that take action by writing a letter the bigger the impact on them, irrespective of what they write back. DO NOT BE PUT OFF BY THEIR POOR RESPONSES. This is designed to grind you down, make you go away, don't let them get away with this, keep fighting, keep putting the case, keep up the pressure, spread the word to family and friends get them to write.

There is also now a facebook page called "Stop the change from RPI to CPI for pensioner indexing" to further the debate and to spread the word. Please use it.

Everybody. Please take a look at the Civil Service Pensioners' Alliance home page https://www.cspa.co.uk.
Here you will find an update on their campaign which is useful. You will also find a draft letter to send to your MP asking them to sign up to EDM 1032. In addition, there is a draft letter in response to MPs flannel.
KMK- You may wish to use this.
Ripoff-You may wish to refer to this on the facebook page.

KEEP FIGHTING

Haybob

The CPSA is a good link but nothing much has been added to it for quite some time, they have been very proactive in fighting the injustice. It is good to see that the National Pensioners Convention are now campaigning on this issue, we need an organisation that all can unite behind.

http://www.npcuk.org/campaign%20bulletins/NPC%20Campaign%20Bulletin%2047.pdf

BoxerfanUK

Interested_Taxpayer wrote: »

Everybody. Please take a look at the Civil Service Pensioners' Alliance home page www.cspa.co.uk.
Here you will find an update on their campaign which is useful. You will also find a draft letter to send to your MP asking them to sign up to EDM 1032. In addition, there is a draft letter in response to MPs flannel.
KMK- You may wish to use this.
Ripoff-You may wish to refer to this on the facebook page.

KEEP FIGHTING

Thanks for that, I was just going to ask if anyone had sample letters after reading message 254, now I don't need to

BoxerfanUK

Ripoff wrote: »

They have done no impact analysis, they just say it's a better measure of pensioner inflation but when challenged to prove that is the case, they fail to do so.

They did EXACTLY the same with the Civil Service Compensation Scheme (CSCS), no proper costing or impact assessment done, just a statement that it was unaffordable in its present form!! So how do they know its unaffordable without a costing?!

but hey, lets keep ripping off Civil Servants and pensioners, as long as we can keep pumping 12 BILLION + per annum into overseas aid (50% increase on last year in a time of 'cuts') everythings ok :mad:

Ripoff_2

Haybob wrote: »

The CPSA is a good link but nothing much has been added to it for quite some time, they have been very proactive in fighting the injustice. It is good to see that the National Pensioners Convention are now campaigning on this issue, we need an organisation that all can unite behind.

http://www.npcuk.org/campaign%20bulletins/NPC%20Campaign%20Bulletin%2047.pdf

Below are three pensioner groups, there must be more and like you I also ask the question.

Is it time to join under one umbrella?

We are all in this together!

The National pensioners convention (NPC)is at www.npcuk.org
The National federation of occupational pensioners (NFOP) is at www.nfop.org.uk
The Civil Service pensioners Alliance (CSPA) is at www.cspa.co.uk