attention Gas Fitters and Heating Engineers

quoia

I was told yesterday at a Fire & Fireplace showroom that the law/building regulations or whatever are about to change regarding the sale of and/or installation of "less efficient" gas boilers.

Apparently as part of the energy efficiency push by the energy industries & the government, from 1st May 2005 (or thereabouts) boilers need to be of the CONDENSING type in order to meet the efficiency level.
These can be either a "normal" boiler where you still have a hot water tank and store your hot water, or the newer COMBINATION boilers where you only heat your hot water as you need it.

This will not a major problem in many instances for replacing a boiler in the future where a new one can be fitted in place of the old one (IN THE SAME POSITION !!) with little modification to the pipework to accomodate it.

HOWEVER, I have been told that despite spending millions on research, no company has yet achieved a CONDENSING BACK BOILER + GAS FIRE system.

Now that is exactly what I have got and I am looking at changing in the near future. Must admit whilst it was probably going to be this year, I was thinking mid to late summer and not before 1st May.

Whilst it would be possible to just have a new gas fire and put a wall mounted condensing boiler somewhere else in the house, this is not my first choice. Locating a boiler somewhere else would be quite a problem and the pipe work upgraded somewhat of a "nightmare"

I think I'd rather replace with a new Back Boiler arrangement.

RIGHT ! ! Questions ?

When exactly do these regulations come into force ?
Is it LAW, a "new build" regulation, a recommendation or what?
Will the old "inefficient" boilers still be available (until they have all gone) and will Corgi fitters still fit them after this date ?
In the last few days, few weeks running up to the "cut off" date, I presume there may be quite a few Back Boiler systems being sold on the cheap if their sale/installation is prohibited after this date. Is this likely? Where should I expect to find "sale bargains" of this product?

Any and all advice welcome.

royster42

Just been through all this myself, here goes;
Brought a new home end of last year and spent long time doing it up. First job of all was the heating system. Got several quotes from the "big" names for combi boiler and 8 radiators. Conversion from immersion heater and storage heaters. Scottish gas and the next biggest name up here both explained the new law regarding condensing boilers to me and when it was coming in to effect. Their quotes were both close to £5k and out of my league. I eventually settled on a "soon to be old fashioned" non condensing combi boiler, and all the trimmings for £2k including fitting. chuffed to bits with work and heating system. My engineer explained that the big names are using this upcoming requirement as a way to make a killing, no surprises there then. My advice to anyone in same position, do the same as i did.
In reply to your questions, i was told the may date, same as you . As to what the law means, i was told that the big companies would ONLY fit the new condensing type after this date as new systems, but old style would still be maintained.
hope this helps a little, im sure other more comprehensive posts will soon come "flooding" in ha ha
ps. if it aint broke dont fix it, and go with the old style.

royster42

ooops forgot to say the reason it dont work as a back boiler system behind your fire is because the new condensing boilers have to have a drip pipe.

quoia

royster42 wrote:

ooops forgot to say the reason it dont work as a back boiler system behind your fire is because the new condensing boilers have to have a drip pipe.

Yes this was mentioned as one of the supposed reasons but in another house I owned, I had a very high efficiency "flueless" GlowWorm "condensing" gas fire. This required no flue (no 4 or 5 inch flexi aluminium/stainless pipe anywhere) just a 1 inch plastic pipe to an outside wall for the condensate. This could be up to 6 metres long with 3 or 4 ninety degree elbows in it. Yes it had to run downhill all the way, but this was only about 8mm per metre, so the outside "vent" was a maximum of only 2 inches lower than the outlet on the gas fire. Can't see why this would be very much different.

The gentleman in the fire & fireplace shop thought the biggest problem was the flue arrangement.
Condensing boilers have a "fanned flue/balanced flue" type system (of at least 5 or 6 inch diameter) and because of this it has the ability to be quite long. Up to 12 metres I understand, so no problem lengthwise in it going up a chimney, but I believe it is 1 pipe inside another (fresh air IN & burnt gases OUT) and it is a solid stiff assembly rather than a flexible COPEX? flue, so installation in any non straight top to bottom chimney might be difficult if not impossible.
HOWEVER this is not the whole story nor possibly the real problem.

This flue is for JUST the the boiler.

With a normal gas fire & back boiler, burnt gases from BOTH sets of burners escape up the SAME flue.
With a "sealed to the outside world" fanned/balanced flue system for the condensing side of things I'm not sure how the gas fire can use the same flue.

So up the same chimney, there still needs to be a normal flue for the gas fire.
This needs to have a cross-sectional area equivalent to a 5 inch diameter pipe, so you would need rather a large chimney to accomodate it.
I think the "standard" brick flue is 9" in diameter.

dougk_2

Maybe I am wrong , but the information I read said that after May backboilers CAN still be fitted and will be available new. The restriction is they can only be used to replace exsiting ones (so no new backboiler systems).

plumb1_2

some exceptions


Any external extended vertical flue pipe visible on the side of the building facing the main approach direction (this is usually the front). Note that this refers only to the flue pipea, not the flue terminal.
b) Where the boiler or extended internal flue is in a principal living room that does not include a kitchen area.
c) Where it would be necessary for the flue to pass through another dwelling, building or fire compartment (see Guide for further details).
d) Where a shared flue would have to be used.
i) Where the flue terminal cannot be positioned in compliance with Approved Document J of the Building Regulations.
ii) Where the discharge from the flue is horizontal and the flue terminal position is:
iii) under the roof of a car port
iv) less than 2.5 metres from a facing wall, fence, building, or the property boundary
v) less than 2.1 metres above the ground and less than 2.5 metres from a car parking space
vi) less than 2.1 metres above the ground and the plume of flue products would:
be directed across a public footway or frequently used private access route; OR
be directed across a frequently used area (eg, patio).
e) With an internal flue extension exceeding 4 metres (excluding where it passes through a loft/attic space).
f) Where the flue passes through a wall or floor that must not be pierced for structural reasons (e.g. a pre-stressed wall in a block of flats)

quoia

dougk wrote:

Maybe I am wrong , but the information I read said that after May backboilers CAN still be fitted and will be available new. The restriction is they can only be used to replace exsiting ones (so no new backboiler systems).

Not exactly true.

As per another thread I just read and "THE EXCEPTION RULE" I found.

http://www.centralheating.co.uk/index/fuseaction/site.viewFile/id/7283


Q1. CAN a condensing boiler be fitted anywhere? NO = Fit non-condensing boiler
Q2. IS IT "DIFFICULT" to fit condensing boiler ? YES = do "exception test".

Calculate using the easiest/cheapest method - IGNORE ANY & ALL CUSTOMER OBJECTIONS !

Basically you have to get more than 1000 points on "the exception score chart" to be able to have a non condensing boiler fitted.

If natural gas is the fuel then you start with 590 points.
If the boiler HAS TO BE FITTED in a different room to where it is originally add on 350 points. (automatic if back boiler)

SO FAR SO GOOD 590 + 350 = 940

Just need another 60.

Unfortunately.

Can the boiler be installed ANYWHERE that an Extended flue (longer than 2m) is NOT necessary?
NOWHERE = 200 points (for gas)
YES SOMEWHERE = ZERO

Does the installation require a CONSENDATE PUMP or a SOAKAWAY to be created?
YES = 100 points
NO = ZERO

Sadly for 99.9999% of replacements and "new" installs both these last 2 questions will score ZERO, which means NO back boiler replacements after April 1st 2005 UNLESS you find a dodgy CORGI engineer !!!!!

The_Biff

I had a condensing boiler fitted 8 years ago & I would estimate about a £20+ per month saving. Over the 8 years this would be ....um £1920 (?). Assume it has a life cycle of 16 years then £3840 would cover a lot of extra fitting costs.

Midget_Karen

My Nana has just been told that she is no longer allowed her "free standing" boiler in the centre of the house, but that a new boiler must be against an outside wall (at the mere cost of £4k).

Anyone know how this fits into those new regulations ? (I don't know if her current one is non condensing or condensing or what, but at present it feeds into the old chimney stack)

Thanks

roddydogs

The_Biff wrote: »

I had a condensing boiler fitted 8 years ago & I would estimate about a £20+ per month saving. Over the 8 years this would be ....um £1920 (?). Assume it has a life cycle of 16 years then £3840 would cover a lot of extra fitting costs.

Youll be very lucky to get a Condensing boiler to last 16 years, more like 8 years as the heat exchangers are so thin......the extra cost will almost certainly cost more than the small amount you will save having a condensing boiler, its just another pathetic EU/government dictat as to what is "Good" For us. If your "Saving" £20 Pm, how much heat are you using?

keystone

roddydogs wrote: »

Youll be very lucky to get a Condensing boiler to last 16 years, more like 8 years as the heat exchangers are so thin......the extra cost will almost certainly cost more than the small amount you will save having a condensing boiler, its just another pathetic EU/government dictat as to what is "Good" For us. If your "Saving" £20 Pm, how much heat are you using?

Stop it! This thread is FIVE years old and so is the pathetic EU dictat.

Cheers