Southwest Train- fine when I didn't use the train

yorkie2

Stigy wrote: »

Would a non-compulsary ticket area matter in this instance? I mean, Lawrence had a ticket, it was just not one he was entitled to! The PF did cover him to make his return journey, did it not? Lawrence had already travelled using a child rate ticket on his outward journey, so that was enough for the PF. He also showed he intended to use the return portion of the ticket in order to make his return journey. The RPI/A could just have reported the matter and not bothered with a PF. Not sure how old Lawrence is, but the facts can be reported as long as an offender is over 16-years of age. Although at 16 or 17 court is unlikely, if he persists, then he'll end up there nonetheless.

I'd imagine he's either 16 or 17, as any older and to be honest a PF shouldn't have been issued. Having said that, it all depends on the staff issuing, and whether they 'do' MG11s etc I guess.

I have a suspicion the PF may be invalid on the grounds that he didn't even start his journey or enter a compulsory ticket area when caught. The correct action was probably to file a report for prosecution for suspected illegal use of an outward portion of an adult on child ticket on the outward journey. This would be a little harder to prove (but perhaps not if the OP admitted to making the journey and there is a possibility of CCTV evidence etc...). If the OP appeals, they may be able to re-consider this possibility. Or maybe not. I am not sure.

The OP could try using Penalty Fare Support, a service run by ex-rail staff who are unhappy at the Penalty Fare scheme. The PF may be invalid and unenforceable. But compared to the alternative possibility of a criminal record, not a severe concequence.

Quentin

Fines round here in court (in this weeks paper) for being caught without a ticket:

Case 1:

Fine: £26
Costs: £110
Victim Surcharge: £15

(Plus made to pay the value of the ticket to the train company - £2.60!)


CAse 2:

Fine: £77
Costs: £110
Victim Surcharge: £15

(Plus made to pay the value of the ticket to the train company - £7)

On top of all that they both now have criminal records.

Just not worth it.

Stigy

yorkie2 wrote: »

If you appeal, they may change their mind and try to prosecute you. If you did not actually travel on the ticket, then I am struggling to see how they can issue you with a PF though. But the intent was there, I am unsure if showing intent to use a child ticket but being stopped before you actually enter a train counts. Hmm... If you intend to appeal the £20 fare, seek legal advice.

They can't just change their mind (unfortunately). If he appeals it'll more than likely just be rejected and he'll be made to pay the £20. What they should ask him is, "are you a child?" when he says "No", it's job done really, lol. If he then fails to pay the PF, that's when things get worse for him.

yorkie wrote:

Oh, yeah, and you admit that this was the return portion and you used the outward portion illegally. So, if they prosecuted you, you may have to argue in court that you didn't use the outward portion. I hope they don't read this forum as there is an admission here that you travelled fraudulently - ooops!

They'll only prosecute him now if he fails to either pay the PF or appeal it. Or if he appeals it, fails and then still doesn't pay. If they prosecute though I would imagine it would be for a byelaw (18.1) as opposed to the Regulation of Railways Act offence (5.3(a)), mainly because intent (although in my view obvious in this case) has to be established for the RRA offence to be charged. Basically the burden of proof for the RRA offence is higher than that of the strict liability offence of the 18.1.

yorkie wrote:

You will get more specialist advice on Railforums Fares, Ticketing & Routeing Section. But some railway staff there will not be impressed if you admit to having broken the law, so you'd need to be careful what you say! Genuine customers are always given great advice there, but in your case, it may be best to just pay the £20 and be done with it.

I too think that paying the £20 is the better option here.

dzug1

yorkie2 wrote: »

If you intend to appeal the £20 fare, seek legal advice.

Which will cost more than the £20 surely?

robt_2

dzug1 wrote: »

Which will cost more than the £20 surely?

I suspect the OP would be entitled to legal aid as I am guessing they are under 18 and a student?

Pretty irrelevant though as only a complete moron would even consider not paying the £20 for risk of a criminal record.

Hintza

Well that is another satisfied customer. They were last on at 7pm last night and obviously decided it was wisest not bothering thanking everyone for their kind words.

Stigy

Hintza wrote: »

Well that is another satisfied customer. They were last on at 7pm last night an obviously decided it was wisest not bothering thanking everyone for their kind words.

He might be back yet, although I think he didn't receive the responses he was looking for...:j

geordieracer

Stigy wrote: »

He might be back yet, although I think he didn't receive the responses he was looking for...:j

people in the wrong never do on here though! :rotfl: