Southwest Train- fine when I didn't use the train

Lawrence2j

Hey,
Now before I start I'll say that I know I didn't do anything right but Im really tight on money atm.
I bought a ticket to go from Winchester to Southampton (5 stops I think) but couldn't bring myself to pay adult price for a return. I have a educational pass that I paid for just a few months before for 270 pound which would take me through to the third station on the line so it felt like I was paying twice for the journey.
So I bought a Childs version of the ticket.
I used to outbound to get out of the station at Southampton.
On the way back the guard stopped me at the turnstiles and fined me twenty pound for trying to enter the station with the child ticket when I was an adult. Now my issue here is could I appeal it on the grounds that they ticket was never used and I hadn't travelled? Therefore they charged me for nothing as I went and bought the correct adult ticket from Southampton to Eastleigh after I'd got fined.

I won't be doing it again, I can tell you that but the twenty hurts a bit more than I can handle at the moment.
Would the appeal have any chance?
Thanks!

Ps- penalty fare regulations of 1994 on which the fine was delivered specify

7. — (1) No person present in or leaving a compulsory ticket area, but who is not leaving a train, shall be charged a penalty fare in the circumstances to which this regulation applies.

Hintza

Basically you tried to defraud them and they let you off with a very small fine.

If I were you I would just thank my lucky stars the didn't decide to take you to court then it could have been in the hundreds.

dzug1

But you did leave a train - on your outward journey.

Your appeal would involve admitting that misuse of the outward half of the ticket which could get you in deeper trouble.

But on the face of it a penalty fare should not have been issued - probably some other sanction

robt_2

Pay the fine, be grafeful you are not going to court for fraud.

Honestly. Some people.

geordieracer

This should have been an MG11 but the very nice person has let you off with just the PF.. take it on the chin and move on.

Stigy

As has been said, you are lucky that you were only given a Penalty Fare! Doesn't matter how you dress this up, you were in breach of a Regulation of Railways Act offence, which is recordable on the Police National Computer. Basically I strongly suggest you pay the PF and be done with it, as you have no grounds for appeal. You did travel by train on your outward journey, and that is the one the PF refers to.

Badger_Lady

You got caught, fair and square gov'ner.

The one thing I don't understand... if you already had a pass (season ticket?) that would take you three stops, surely you only had to buy a ticket for the last two stops..? Or am I misunderstanding you?

glider3560

Southampton Central DOES NOT have a compulsory ticket area - whatever the staff on the barriers say. For a station to be a compulsory ticket area, all operators serving the station must operate a penalty fare scheme. Crosscountry do not and they call at Southampton. Therefore not a compulsory ticket area.

The £20 is also a penalty fare, not a fine. The keyword is fare. So the £20 should have covered you to make your journey.

What you did was wrong, but the Penalty Fare for entering the station seems as equally wrong to me. You may have fallen foul of other railway byelaws (which can mean court and a higher fine), so paying the PF is probably the cheapest option.

In the future, buy a full priced ticket for only the journey you don't already hold a pass for (i.e. Eastleigh, or wherever to Winchester).

Stigy

glider3560 wrote: »

Southampton Central DOES NOT have a compulsory ticket area - whatever the staff on the barriers say. For a station to be a compulsory ticket area, all operators serving the station must operate a penalty fare scheme. Crosscountry do not and they call at Southampton. Therefore not a compulsory ticket area.

The £20 is also a penalty fare, not a fine. The keyword is fare. So the £20 should have covered you to make your journey.

What you did was wrong, but the Penalty Fare for entering the station seems as equally wrong to me. You may have fallen foul of other railway byelaws (which can mean court and a higher fine), so paying the PF is probably the cheapest option.

In the future, buy a full priced ticket for only the journey you don't already hold a pass for (i.e. Eastleigh, or wherever to Winchester).

Would a non-compulsary ticket area matter in this instance? I mean, Lawrence had a ticket, it was just not one he was entitled to! The PF did cover him to make his return journey, did it not? Lawrence had already travelled using a child rate ticket on his outward journey, so that was enough for the PF. He also showed he intended to use the return portion of the ticket in order to make his return journey. The RPI/A could just have reported the matter and not bothered with a PF. Not sure how old Lawrence is, but the facts can be reported as long as an offender is over 16-years of age. Although at 16 or 17 court is unlikely, if he persists, then he'll end up there nonetheless.

I'd imagine he's either 16 or 17, as any older and to be honest a PF shouldn't have been issued. Having said that, it all depends on the staff issuing, and whether they 'do' MG11s etc I guess.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

glider3560 wrote: »

Southampton Central DOES NOT have a compulsory ticket area - whatever the staff on the barriers say. For a station to be a compulsory ticket area, all operators serving the station must operate a penalty fare scheme. Crosscountry do not and they call at Southampton. Therefore not a compulsory ticket area.

The £20 is also a penalty fare, not a fine. The keyword is fare. So the £20 should have covered you to make your journey.

What you did was wrong, but the Penalty Fare for entering the station seems as equally wrong to me. You may have fallen foul of other railway byelaws (which can mean court and a higher fine), so paying the PF is probably the cheapest option.

In the future, buy a full priced ticket for only the journey you don't already hold a pass for (i.e. Eastleigh, or wherever to Winchester).

It seems they got the PF for travelling on a childs ticket instead of a full fare. It was the OP who just quoted the compulsory ticket area blurb after the whole post and not about what they were told by the person who issued the PF

yorkie2

Lawrence2j wrote: »

On the way back the guard stopped me at the turnstiles and fined me twenty pound for trying to enter the station with the child ticket when I was an adult. Now my issue here is could I appeal it on the grounds that they ticket was never used and I hadn't travelled? Therefore they charged me for nothing as I went and bought the correct adult ticket from Southampton to Eastleigh after I'd got fined.

You are lucky. Had you travelled and been caught, you would have been carrying out a criminal offence that carries a fine (£20 fare isn't a fine!) and the criminal record would stay on your record for a normal CRB check for several years and for an enhanced check (required for jobs in places like schools, the police, etc) would stay on your record forever. Fortunately you have escaped without a criminal record!

Lawrence2j wrote: »

I won't be doing it again, I can tell you that but the twenty hurts a bit more than I can handle at the moment.
Would the appeal have any chance?
Thanks!

If you appeal, they may change their mind and try to prosecute you. If you did not actually travel on the ticket, then I am struggling to see how they can issue you with a PF though. But the intent was there, I am unsure if showing intent to use a child ticket but being stopped before you actually enter a train counts. Hmm... If you intend to appeal the £20 fare, seek legal advice.

Oh, yeah, and you admit that this was the return portion and you used the outward portion illegally. So, if they prosecuted you, you may have to argue in court that you didn't use the outward portion. I hope they don't read this forum as there is an admission here that you travelled fraudulently - ooops!

You will get more specialist advice on Railforums Fares, Ticketing & Routeing Section. But some railway staff there will not be impressed if you admit to having broken the law, so you'd need to be careful what you say! Genuine customers are always given great advice there, but in your case, it may be best to just pay the £20 and be done with it.