Need advice on returning a matress

redpete

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

I don't think the air will make any difference to the weight.
I know that air isn't weightless, but given that it will be weighed in an atmosphere of air, it will balance out. E.g. if it was somehow filled with helium then it would weigh less than when vacuum packed.

I was avoiding the full physics-based analysis on whether it's weighed in a vacuum or atmospheric pressure, the difference between mass and weight, or the temperature and make-up of the gas and surrounding atmosphere. What is definite is that the uncompressed mattress does not weigh "a LOT more" and that most people agree that it is the responsibility of the seller to pay for the return, whether the mattress is compressed or otherwise.

JimmyTheWig

redpete wrote: »

I was avoiding the full physics-based analysis on whether it's weighed in a vacuum or atmospheric pressure, the difference between mass and weight, or the temperature and make-up of the gas and surrounding atmosphere. What is definite is that the uncompressed mattress does not weigh "a LOT more" and that most people agree that it is the responsibility of the seller to pay for the return, whether the mattress is compressed or otherwise.

Sorry redpete, I quoted you harshly there, didn't I.
Really I was agreeing with you, just taking it slightly further.

Tim_Deegan

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

Tim,

Paypal buyer protection means that if a buyer wins a dispute and they provide proof that the item has been delivered (or an attempted delivery has been made and the seller refused to accept it), then the buyer will get their money back irrespective of whether there was any money available in the sellers paypal account or not.

It used to be the case that refunds were dependant on there being money available but this changed a couple of years ago.
Now if there is no money, paypal refund themselves and then try to reclaim it from the seller.

There are a few advantages in going down the paypal route first.
1/ OM3 will no longer have a large unwanted mattress in their house,
2/ If it comes to legal action then they will be able to show that they have attempted to minimize their losses,
3/ And lastly (and maybe most importantly), winning any legal action doesn't guarantee getting any money back from the seller.



Of course they are in addition to your statutory rights.
Neither ebay or paypal have any legal obligation to provide any protection any more that the publishers of a free ad newspaper have to provide any protection.
It is not ebay or paypal who are selling the goods.
Ebay are an advertising medium and paypal are a money transfer service.



Opinion or do you have a legal ruling to back this up?

I do know how the system works. However you are missing the point that the buyer will be out of pocket by a huge amount by returning the mattress. And then it could be a long legal process recovering that money.

As for their policies being illegal, it is from a previous bad experience with paypal. My solicitor was chomping at the bit to take them on as he said some of their practices were clearly illegal. I would have done, but I was simply too busy.

shaun_from_Africa

However you are missing the point that the buyer will be out of pocket by a huge amount by returning the mattress. And then it could be a long legal process recovering that money.

No, I'm not missing any point at all. It is you that are not understanding it.

Neither Paypal or ebay are required to offer any protection, and even though they do offer this, the buyer does not have to use it.
It is their choice to do so, and so it is their choice to accept the terms and conditions of the protection, one of which is that they must pay the return costs.

This does not in any way infringe their statutory rights which remain in place and a buyer can attempt to enforce them at any time.

Ebay and paypal buyer protection offers a fairly easy way for a buyer to recover the money that they originally paid for goods, but not their return costs.
As I stated in an earlier post, there is no way that either paypal or ebay can make a seller refund the return postage costs. Neither company is a law enforcment agency and neither company has any legal remit to access any money other then that transferred during the original purchase.


I totally agree that the seller is legally responsible for ensuring a buyer of faulty or wrongly delivered goods is not at a loss, but unless a seller is willing to pay this on a voluntary basis, legal action is the only way to recover it.

As for their policies being illegal, it is from a previous bad experience with paypal. My solicitor was chomping at the bit to take them on as he said some of their practices were clearly illegal. I would have done, but I was simply too busy

But that is simply your solicitors opinion which is why I asked if you could provide a link to a legal ruling.

Tim_Deegan

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

I totally agree that the seller is legally responsible for ensuring a buyer of faulty or wrongly delivered goods is not at a loss, but unless a seller is willing to pay this on a voluntary basis, legal action is the only way to recover it.

This is the only point that applies in law. Ebay and Paypal do not enforce the law, and many sellers seem to think that they only have to abide by Paypal or Ebay's policies, and not the law.

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

But that is simply your solicitors opinion which is why I asked if you could provide a link to a legal ruling.

No it's a fact. I'm not going into details as it is a completely seperate matter, and would be going off topic.

If you want some examples of Paypal's bad policies than go to http://www.paypalsucks.com

shaun_from_Africa

I'm not going into details as it is a completely seperate matter, and would be going off topic.

I agree it's going off topic, but as it was you that first brought up paypals "illegal" activities, I though it would be reasonable to expect you to be able back up this claim with some evidence.

Tim_Deegan

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

I agree it's going off topic, but as it was you that first brought up paypals "illegal" activities, I though it would be reasonable to expect you to be able back up this claim with some evidence.

I really don't have time to go into details at the moment.

cyberbob

Tim_Deegan wrote: »

If you want some examples of Paypal's bad policies than go to http://www.paypalsucks.com

As this site is actually funded by one of Paypals US competitors not exactly impartial. The site is just full of bitter people who didn't bother to understand or read paypal's policies.

cyberbob

Tim_Deegan wrote: »

I really don't have time to go into details at the moment.

Because you don't have any by chance?

Tim_Deegan

cyberbob wrote: »

As this site is actually funded by one of Paypals US competitors not exactly impartial. The site is just full of bitter people who didn't bother to understand or read paypal's policies.

In some cases maybe, but not in many.