Debit Card Fraud- will I get a refund LTSB

pmduk

Surely that many large transactions in such a short time should have raised some alarm bells if the security systems at the bank are any good? Who makes repeated large transactions in an off licence in such a short space of time?

Baldur

suburbanwifey wrote: »

Wrong, it is for the customer to prove they did not authorize fraudulent transactions or that they did not allow someone else to use their PIN.

Fiddlestick is correct.

Your information appears to be rather out of date, as the burden of proof was changed last November - see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/banking/6338659/Bank-payments-13-months-to-dispute-suspicious-transactions.html

Fiddlestick

suburbanwifey wrote: »

Wrong, it is for the customer to prove they did not authorize fraudulent transactions or that they did not allow someone else to use their PIN.

That's not what my T&Cs say for my First Direct and Barclaycard accounts.

I read every line before signing them.

suburbanwifey

Baldur wrote: »

Fiddlestick is correct.

Your information appears to be rather out of date, as the burden of proof was changed last November - see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/banking/6338659/Bank-payments-13-months-to-dispute-suspicious-transactions.html

Thanks for that! I didn't know that, none of my card providers have passed this information to me hehe

But still, even with this ruling, I think she will have grave problems...I still don't think she will get the money back!

James

Absolutely true, it is up to your Card Issuer to prove you've been negligent with your PIN.

This came about due to the huge volume of PIN based disputed transactions.

For peace of mind and professional help why not call Action Fraud on their Freephone 0300 123 2040 (Click here for Website and more info).

Good luck.

tr105

The last time I had used cash in my purse was at 1am the night before, and I had withdrawn money from an ATM much earlier in the evening.

I am honestly confused as to how someone could have obtained my PIN number. Having researched into this quite a bit there are several scams running where fraudsters can effectively use some machines to make it look as though the PIN has been entered correctly, a "yescard".

What I also find odd is that my bank allowed these transactions to go through, I would never normally spend that money in such a short space of time and in the same shop. I wonder whether I might be able to pursue the line that the bank should have realised sooner.

I am sure they will not care about the circumstantial evidence either: I was one of 4 victims in this particular bar that night, also had my Camera and Phone stolen from my bag- I was pickpocketed.

suburbanwifey

tr105 wrote: »

The last time I had used cash in my purse was at 1am the night before, and I had withdrawn money from an ATM much earlier in the evening.

I am honestly confused as to how someone could have obtained my PIN number. Having researched into this quite a bit there are several scams running where fraudsters can effectively use some machines to make it look as though the PIN has been entered correctly, a "yescard".

What I also find odd is that my bank allowed these transactions to go through, I would never normally spend that money in such a short space of time and in the same shop. I wonder whether I might be able to pursue the line that the bank should have realised sooner.

I am sure they will not care about the circumstantial evidence either: I was one of 4 victims in this particular bar that night, also had my Camera and Phone stolen from my bag- I was pickpocketed.

I agree on the point of them not querying it..its odd...I went into a shop into a town where I had not shopped before and went to buy an item with a hefty price tag....as this was not usual to my pattern of spending, I had to call them to confirm I was the card holder, which is fair enough.

It must be awful to be pick-pocked like that what rats they are! Mention that scam you read about to them when they have that phone call with them and then if they still don't wanna listen, mention the new rules on banks having to prove the customer is at fault - they may neglect to tell you that when they are grilling you.

It doesn't sound good, but if you stand your ground, you may have a chance of getting the money back. Good Luck.

Voyager2002

I do hope you made a police report: the loss of the other items confirms your account.

pmduk

tr105 wrote: »

I was one of 4 victims in this particular bar that night, also had my Camera and Phone stolen from my bag- I was pickpocketed.

That's very relevant, I'd collect as much information as you can about all of the thefts.

tr105

UPDATE:

So, I did quite a lot of research into this issue before my telephone interview had been arranged and decided to call LTSB Fraud Team to point out the following facts to them. (As I am a newbie I cannot post the link so will quote from the Article/Website which if you Google you can read more on...)

1. Firstly, the fact that my PIN had been used is not enough to prove that I have been negligent and an investigation must be carried out within a few days if they do suspect you of being somehow involved. The onus is on the bank to substantiate their accusation with evidence.


FSA- Unauthorised transactions



“If you think a transaction on your account was not authorised by you, the bank or building society will need to prove either that you authorised it, or that you either deliberately or carelessly allowed someone else to get hold of your password or PIN. Just because your PIN was used will not necessarily be enough to prove that this is the case. Unless the bank or building society can prove this, it will have to refund your account immediately. If it can show that it needs to investigate the claim, then that investigation must be done quickly (within a few days).”



2. Secondly, there is a little known loophole in the Consumer Credit Act 1974. This states that if a stolen card was used as a "credit token", the owner is again liable only for the first £50 of any losses. And it is deemed to have been used as a credit token if it was used to remove funds from an overdrawn account, or made an account overdrawn. As my account was made substantially overdrawn I was prepared to use this argument (but the first one convinced them). There is also guidance from the Financial Ombudsman Service in Issue 46 of their newsletter.


“Some firms think that if cardholders were grossly negligent in their care of a card and/or PIN, then they can always be held liable for the full amount of any transactions made with that card by a fraudster. But that is not the case. There must be an appropriate provision in the card’s terms. The lack of care must have been the cause of the loss. And even then, the consumer’s liability may be limited if the card was used as a credit-token.”


OUTCOME:

After posing argument 1 with them, they conceded that they had no evidence to suggest I was somehow involved in the fraud on my account. They concluded that someone must have “shoulder surfed” me at some point during the day and targeted me later that evening (which I still not 100% convinced about having read about various technologies that “steal” PIN’s). Having checked online banking, they have refunded the full amounts.

In future, I will only carry cash with me and no debit card. I would much rather lose a £100 in cash than have to fight these battles again. All purchases I make will be on Credit Cards (which are protected by the Credit Token rules).