Railway by-law expert needed - walking through first class with std class ticket?

GillsMan7

As a first class ticket holder, I have no issues if someone's just passing through. It does annoy me when travelling on the Gatwick Express when standard class pax conglomerate around the doors at the front of the train (in first class) to get off near the front of the station though. It's not as annoying as when the guards don't check the tickets and you have people who are standard class holders* who are sitting in first class though. :mad:

However, standard class pax are just passing through the 1st class carriage I don't see what the issue is personally.

* It's easy to tell. If someone gets on the train and doesn't make their way straight to the 1st class area then they aren't 1st class ticket holders.

Rolandtheroadie

olly300 wrote: »

No they actually tell you on some trains to sit in 1st class and pay the difference when the guard comes.

It's from the time when you could get on a train without a ticket and pay without the guard trying to give you a penalty fare.

So you couldnt do it when they check your standard ticket in your standard seat?

dmg24

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

You still need a first class ticket even to stand in first class, so I think the guard was correct here. Part of the advantage of first class is that you have less distance to walk down the platforms at the London terminals, he hadn't paid for this!

However I don't see any problem getting *on* in 1st.

Not if you travel in from Nottingham - the first class carriages tend to be at the back of the train!

pinkteapot

olly300 wrote: »

OP the guard was just being a jobsworth.

:rotfl:This thought had crossed my mind too.

olly300 wrote: »

I hope your husband knows what he looks like so if he's on the train he knows not to walk down the carriages.

Well hubby got lucky in a sense because today the guard was literally guarding the first class entrance and not letting anyone in without a first class ticket. But the guard said that National Express East Anglia are clamping down on this, and another commuter told hubby that a couple of days ago he had been standing in the vestibule between two first class carriages and been given a fine (at which point he gave a fake name and address to the guard :eek:).

Sounds like the train company's main concern is people standing in the first class vestibules. On our trains, you have one door at each end of the carriage (good old slam doors at that). You get on and then there's a vestibule with an internal door into the main section of the carriage with the seating. People don't stand within the first class seating area but they do stand in the vestibules sometimes.

harz99

By no means an expert nowadays, but this is how it worked in my day.

pinkteapot wrote: »

I always thought you just had to have a first class ticket to sit in first class.

No, you are required to pay a first class fare, or have a valid first class pass, season ticket or companion ticket to travel in a vehicle or carriage classified as first class. In other words from end to end of the whole carriage between corridor (or end) connections.

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

You still need a first class ticket even to stand in first class, so I think the guard was correct here.

Correct.

Quentin wrote: »

You are encouraged to upgrade to first class if you want to on the train, so how could you (legally) attempt this were it against the law to enter a first class coach with only a standard class ticket?

Providing you intend, and do, pay the first class fare you have done nothing wrong, particularly if you have been "invited" to upgrade.

Of course, should you be in a Penalty Fares area, that can be a whole different ball game!

robt_2

I also assume that he (and other commuters) would also be barging through the First Class quiet coach.

Whilst it is possible the guard was being a jobsworth, if I was paying a premium first class fare (which very often subsidise standard class fares), I would have no problem with what he was doing at all.

Stigy

pinkteapot wrote: »

As per the title really, just curious.... Hubby got a ticking off from the ticket inspector this morning for walking through a first class carriage with his standard class ticket (he didn't sit down). Apparently this contravenes a by-law. I always thought you just had to have a first class ticket to sit in first class.

Anyone know? He wasn't fined or anything. I'm just curious. We both commute and in the evening, the first class carriages are at the back of the train so at the last minute when the whistle's being blown you get a load of people jump on in first class and walk through to standard. Never seen this by-law enforced before.

Byelaw 19 states that you shouldn't sit or remain in an area reserved for specific ticket holders unless in possesion of said ticket, or unless given permission from an authorised person (1st class in your hubby's case). As long as he walked straight out, I can't see how he contravened this byelaw. Any report submitted for prosecution in this case wouldn't get very far I wouldn't have thought. If however your hubby was standing by the doors that happened to be in the 1st Class area, and remained there until the Guard arrived, then that's a different matter.

Even if you want to upgrade, you should sit in standard class until either sold the relevant ticket for 1st class or advised to wait in 1st class for the guard.

harz99

Stigy wrote: »

Byelaw 19 states that you shouldn't sit or remain in an area reserved for specific ticket holders unless in possesion of said ticket, or unless given permission from an authorised person (1st class in your hubby's case). As long as he walked straight out, I can't see how he contravened this byelaw. Any report submitted for prosecution in this case wouldn't get very far I wouldn't have thought. If however your hubby was standing by the doors that happened to be in the 1st Class area, and remained there until the Guard arrived, then that's a different matter.

Even if you want to upgrade, you should sit in standard class until either sold the relevant ticket for 1st class or advised to wait in 1st class for the guard.

Trouble is if you read her later post 4, hubby walks through the first class to get off quicker at the London Termini. With most slam door stock (and I can only think of HSTs and a few longer distance loco hauled stock trains) nowadays there will not be another standard class vehicle beyond the first class ones - so he would have been in contravention.

Different if had boarded first class in London and was walking through to Stanadard I guess.

Mk14:37

pinkteapot wrote: »

Thing is, I actually think it's quite a sensible by-law. People in first class pay an absolute fortune so if I was sat in there I'd want quiet enjoyment; not hordes of riff-raff traipsing past my seat.

This is the reason that the rule is in force (if not always enforced!). See this article from 2007:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article2310418.ece

peter_the_piper

The sooner these rail companies become like the private parking companies the better. Fining someone for walking through a carriage indeed, reminded me of Deep Space Nine when Quark was charged for sitting then told he would be charged for standing as well.