Live Q&A with Energy Saving Trust - how to save money & energy! 2pm-3pm today 25 Oct!

zeupater

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

I've just been asked to log on and answer this question. I'm the Head of Low Carbon Technologies at the Energy Saving Trust .....

..... which you get with standard panels where the main market is 'by the acre' arrays in China and the USA.

Hi

I'm confused, could you please substantiate the information highlighted above in light of industry data which suggests the following ...

pv Capacity installed in 2009 (Last year with complete data)

Total (2009) 7.2GW

Germany (2009) 3.8GW
USA (2009) 477MW
China (2009) 160MW

.... for clarity, which is correct ???

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I'm confused, could you please substantiate the information highlighted above in light of industry data which suggests the following ...

pv Capacity installed in 2009 (Last year with complete data)

Total (2009) 7.2GW

Germany (2009) 3.8GW
USA (2009) 477MW
China (2009) 160MW

.... for clarity, which is correct ???

You are quite right. That will teach me to respond quickly to MSE posts without doing my homework first. I hadn't appreciated the size of some of the PV farms there are now in Germany, and I must admit my knowledge of the Chinese market comes mainly from solar thermal which I do know in 2002 was 75% of the world market.

My point is still the same though. Standard PV panels will be cheaper than roof tile systems because of the economies of scale achieved making panels for by the acre installations in, say...GERMANY.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

Green_Prune wrote: »

Thanks for your meaty answers - it may take a while to follow some of your leads - may I also ask:
Q*Are micro inverters covered by the FIT scheme?
My southfacing roof is above a garage, visible from my neighbour's garden - he says flush roof panels are less unsightly and the preferred option in Israel.
Q*Is there a difference in the technology used in countries where solar or PV panels have a longer history?
Q*Is the government currently covering costs of equipment and installation at a flat rate like for like - if so, should householders negotiate price - we're all paying for it one way or another?

(I doubt the pressurising salesman represented an MCS installer - he called 7 or 8 months ago.)
:T

Thanks for your thanks.

Yes micro inverters will be covered by FIT if they meet the relevant G83/1 grid connection standards, which they would have to or be very illegal, so couldn't be sold for grid connection.

Flush solar thermal panels are becoming more common as you tend to only have one or two rather than a whole roof full, so they can be fitted in just like rooflights. Doing this for PV would be a lot of fuss, but i'm sure there would be a way to design a clever but simple flashing so the panels replace roof tiles. However, PV panels work much better if kept cool so the space behind would have to be very well ventilated. This is why you tend to end up with another roof under the panels.

PV is a pretty global technology and you can buy most of the same panels anywhere in the world if there is a sales agent there.

The Government is paying you for what you generate, and as long as the installation was MCS certificated, they are not concerned how much it cost you. That is your business. So basically, the less you pay, the less time the panels have to harvest for before they earn back their cost. There is a mocrogen advisor in each of our local advice centres who will have a pretty good idea of the range of prices being charged in your local area. Try speaking to them. 0800 512012.

I'm glad about the installer. There has been a temptation for double glazing salesmen to move into solar recently, taking their bad habits with them. This is why these techniques are specifically banned by the REAL code.

zeupater

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

You are quite right. That will teach me to respond quickly to MSE posts without doing my homework first. I hadn't appreciated the size of some of the PV farms there are now in Germany, and I must admit my knowledge of the Chinese market comes mainly from solar thermal which I do know in 2002 was 75% of the world market.

My point is still the same though. Standard PV panels will be cheaper than roof tile systems because of the economies of scale achieved making panels for by the acre installations in, say...GERMANY.

Hi

Thanks for the update, however, I'm still confused ..... If the economies of scales in Germany, which is by far the largest single market for solar pv, are driven by large pv farms, how is it that according to the industry: in Germany "The average system size for the first quarter of 2010 was approximately 23.2 kW, in comparison to 23.8 kW last year" (http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/10776/q1-2010-714-mw-of-pv-installed-in-germany/) ? ..... surely the economies of scale in Germany are simply due to the overall market size and the maturity of the industry.

Also, regarding solar thermal, more recent, and therefore more relevant, information sources suggest that the AP region (including China) accounted for 2/3 of global installed capacity in 2009, recording a massive increase in installed capacity over the previous year. (http://www.bsria.co.uk/news/is-the-future-still-bright-for-the-solar-thermal-market/)

What I find worrying so far is that as the EST operates at a level which tends to influence goverment strategy and policy, I would have thought that anyone operating at a senior level within the organisation would therefore be aware of the need to provide clear, concise, reasoned, accurate and current information upon which decisions can be made.

Cardew

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

I'm glad about the installer. There has been a temptation for double glazing salesmen to move into solar recently, taking their bad habits with them. This is why these techniques are specifically banned by the REAL code.

Perhaps you could qualify that by stating Solar PV and the REAL code?

Compared with Solar Thermal salesmen, Double Glazing salesmen are paragons of virtue - unblemished and pure! Ask any Trading Standards office and witness the many Watchdog type programmes.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Hi.
I hope I can ask a broader question and not appear rude.

We've already seen one question answered in a very slanted manner - someone basically required 3kW power over an unspecified period of time, and the answer was that a 3kw capacity solar panel array would suffice, which gave that 3kw of power -if ever - for only a tiny percentage of the year.

I'm sure the rep answered in good faith, and thought the answer was correct when in fact, as any professional engineer will confirm, it is incorrect, or at the very least, very misleading.

I see this sort of thing as a major drawback in most renewable technologies - those in charge or advising, while meaning well, are insufficiently equipped with the correct training to understand quantitatively the technologies.

Take your good self - not trained as an engineer, yet head of what is (or should be) an engineering department - energy (and therefore energy saving) are the domain of engineering, yet I understand you were trained as an architect. As we see all the time, people can very easily be seduced into buying pretty useless renewable technologies (home wind turbines being a prime example) due to not receiving the correct advice.

On the point of solar PV, of course people can be encouraged to take up this technology if you pay them to do so (by loading everyone else's electricity bills, thereby pushing more of the poorer members of society into fuel poverty). But the very high subsidy PV requires simply proves what an inefficient method of generation it is (in the UK). Don't you agree that if subsidies are necessary for clean electricity generation, then the most efficient methods of generation should be subsided, and not the least efficient?

Hi Grahamc2003

For the record, I (Head of LCT) didn't answer the 13A question. I would normally speak in terms of annual harvest rather than instantaneous power. (845 kWhrs per kWpeak etc.). I will have a look back at this one.

The point is with PV is that it is perfectly possible to generate all your annual electrical demands from your roof as long as your needs are no more than average and you have a roof with normal access to sunlight. At the moment PV needs support. Some would argue this is because the price of fossil energy is artificially low because it is subsidised from other indirect sources, let alone the unrealised cost it will have according to the Stern report.

With the coming of SMART appliances, power storage and dynamic tarrif, which is on its way, PV might become even more attractive.

You are correct about the difficulty in getting advice, but this is because there is not much experience out there yet from any profession. As an Architect in 2005 I fitted a wind turbine to a building because an Engineer said it would generate the project 4000kWhrs a year. It didn't generate a single kWhr in 18months. We took it down! It's all down to experience whatever profession or trade you are from. What I learnt from this experience was, if you need to generate electricty and you have access to sunlight, PV always just gets on and works.
(Wind can work very well too, but only in the correct location - see our 2009 report named, location location location.)

Steven Harris (Head of LCT)

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

Cardew wrote: »

Perhaps you could qualify that by stating Solar PV and the REAL code?

Compared with Solar Thermal salesmen, Double Glazing salesmen are paragons of virtue - unblemished and pure! Ask any Trading Standards office and witness the many Watchdog type programmes.

I agree that there are/have been big problems with pressure sales techniques. This is one of the reasons why we have trained up advisers in each of our advice centres to know much more about the technologies and especially how much they should cost. They hold knowledge of all the companies who operate in their areas and always try to encourage customers to shop around. The REAL code really helps with this as well, but at the moment solar thermal doesn't need MCS (hence REAL) for anything, so some companies avoid it.

Big efforts are being made to sort this whole issue out.

Steven (Head of LCT)

beedydad

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

Hi Grahamc2003

For the record, I (Head of LCT) didn't answer the 13A question. I would normally speak in terms of annual harvest rather than instantaneous power. (845 kWhrs per kWpeak etc.). I will have a look back at this one.

The point is with PV is that it is perfectly possible to generate all your annual electrical demands from your roof as long as your needs are no more than average and you have a roof with normal access to sunlight. At the moment PV needs support. Some would argue this is because the price of fossil energy is artificially low because it is subsidised from other indirect sources, let alone the unrealised cost it will have according to the Stern report.

With the coming of SMART appliances, power storage and dynamic tarrif, which is on its way, PV might become even more attractive.

You are correct about the difficulty in getting advice, but this is because there is not much experience out there yet from any profession. As an Architect in 2005 I fitted a wind turbine to a building because an Engineer said it would generate the project 4000kWhrs a year. It didn't generate a single kWhr in 18months. We took it down! It's all down to experience whatever profession or trade you are from. What I learnt from this experience was, if you need to generate electricty and you have access to sunlight, PV always just gets on and works.
(Wind can work very well too, but only in the correct location - see our 2009 report named, location location location.)

Steven Harris (Head of LCT)

Sorry but have to slightly disagree with your first statement.
What you generate thru PV is not the same as what you may use.
Clearly solarPV works in daylight hours and preferably in sunny conditions.
However, this is a miss-match to when you wish to USE the electricity.
We are moving into winter and my "peak" useage is between 5-7pm when, heating, lights T/V, computers, kettles, microwave, etc comes on. None of this can be serviced thru PV.

You must be very careful what is stated!!!

Regards

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Thanks for the update, however, I'm still confused ..... If the economies of scales in Germany, which is by far the largest single market for solar pv, are driven by large pv farms, how is it that according to the industry: in Germany "The average system size for the first quarter of 2010 was approximately 23.2 kW, in comparison to 23.8 kW last year" (http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/10776/q1-2010-714-mw-of-pv-installed-in-germany/) ? ..... surely the economies of scale in Germany are simply due to the overall market size and the maturity of the industry.

Also, regarding solar thermal, more recent, and therefore more relevant, information sources suggest that the AP region (including China) accounted for 2/3 of global installed capacity in 2009, recording a massive increase in installed capacity over the previous year. (http://www.bsria.co.uk/news/is-the-future-still-bright-for-the-solar-thermal-market/)

What I find worrying so far is that as the EST operates at a level which tends to influence goverment strategy and policy, I would have thought that anyone operating at a senior level within the organisation would therefore be aware of the need to provide clear, concise, reasoned, accurate and current information upon which decisions can be made.

You are at the edge of my knowledge since world trends in PV installation is not part of my daily role. However, 23kW is a huge domestic array! That would be 130 200Watt panels covering 153 m2! (An average UK south facing pitch of a roof would be about 40m2) Most domestic arrays are up to 4kW and average electrical usage can be accounted against the annual harvest from around a 3kW array. I suspect this German average has been dragged up by some large solar farm and industrial installation.

I did used to read Renewable Energy Focus and Renewable Energy world, but prefer Homepower, Renewable Energy Installer and Green Building these days.

My point though is that standard panels are cheaper than roof tiles systems! Maybe I should have just left it at that and not speculated a reason for this.

Steven (Head of LCT)

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

Hi,

whilst we will continue to answer questions posted on this board, if you would like a more 'real time' response to a question then why not check out our live Q&A session on renewables (with Steve Harris, Head of Low Carbon Technologies) taking place on our Facebook page from 2pm to 3pm today. If you're unable to join in then continue to post here and we'll answer your questions as quickly as possible.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Energy-Saving-Trust/25919404073

Thanks,

Matt