Live Q&A with Energy Saving Trust - how to save money & energy! 2pm-3pm today 25 Oct!

Lube

How is it fair that we customers pay for this on our energy bills?

This is for people who can afford panels or those daft enough to rent there roof out for 25 years in return for some free energy.

Once again the poor who are the least able to afford to pay panels to subside those who can

Having heating.lighting for your home ie necessary yet very little is done in taxing air travel as most of that is not necessary

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

Green_Prune wrote: »

This government initiative to encourage the use of home generated green electricity looks impressive and I'm interested, particularly as I understand we'll all be paying for it in our energy bills - could you answer a few queries please:-
* I believe solar panels/photo voltaic roof panels are expected to last 25 years - are there more efficient technologies expected very soon leaving householders stuck with low effecient technology for 25 years?
* estimated guide prices are expected to be £10-£12K installed: I've had only one rep quote, so far, and negotiated down from £10 to £4K, but only if I signed up immediately (which I wouldn't, as I felt pressurised after an 8 hour sales visit)! Might this imply a massive profit for manufacturing/installation companies. Are householders free to negotiate price within the scheme?
* to counteract the accusation that panels look "unsightlly", is it correct that instead of laying panels on top of roof tiles, they may be neatly fitted, flush to the roof, within the free installation scheme?

I've just been asked to log on and answer this question. I'm the Head of Low Carbon Technologies at the Energy Saving Trust.

I'm not aware of any fundamentally new technologies about to break onto the market. Organic PV has been promised for at least the last 10 years, but at the moment it is still less efficient and more expensive. The technology that is about to break is micro inverters that mean every panel will have its own inverter and hence each panel in an array will work at it optimum efficeincy rather the whole array being 'bottlenecked' by the most shaded panel. However, an inverter bought today may only last 10 years, so you could change to micro inverter then.

PV efficiencies have been creeping up, but only by the odd percentage point here and there, and always with a cost attached.

On lifespan of PV, I recently read an account in homepower magazine of a panel that was taken down from where it had been working for the last 33 years and tested. It was found to working better than its original specification and also have no visable signs of ageing. The oldest panels currently operating in the world are about 45-50 years old, but of course, they are very old versions of PV technology.

Prices for installations have come down recently. They tend to range between about £3500 and £5500 per kW complete and installed. Bigger arrays (near 4kW) tend to work out less per kW than smaller ones as the installer will still need to hire the same scaffolding and spend a day on the instalation.

Your tale of a 8hr pressurised sales experience is worrying and against the REAL code that all MCS installers have to be signed up to. Can I suggest you report this installer to REAL and recount your experience. Immediate sign up to get a discount is specifically banned as a sales technique.

Flush roof fitting systems for ordinary panels are becoming available. Sharp have been showing one recently. The problem is that they involve a lot of building works as you basically end up building another roof under the panels, or raising the rest of the roof up to match the level of the panels, which can cost more than the panels themselves.

There are roof tile systems where the PV cell is hidden in a roof tile 'styled' panel, but again these are more expensive than standard 'pure power' panels. The problem is that fitting in with ordinary tiled roofs is a pretty much UK only issue, so there is no global economy of scale which you get with standard panels where the main market is 'by the acre' arrays in China and the USA.

Green_Prune

Thanks for your meaty answers - it may take a while to follow some of your leads - may I also ask:
Q*Are micro inverters covered by the FIT scheme?
My southfacing roof is above a garage, visible from my neighbour's garden - he says flush roof panels are less unsightly and the preferred option in Israel.
Q*Is there a difference in the technology used in countries where solar or PV panels have a longer history?
Q*Is the government currently covering costs of equipment and installation at a flat rate like for like - if so, should householders negotiate price - we're all paying for it one way or another?

(I doubt the pressurising salesman represented an MCS installer - he called 7 or 8 months ago.)
:T

shoi

RachelnPaul wrote: »

Thank you for your reply, can you please just give me some idea in lay-mans-terms of how many solar pv panels would be needed to generate 13amps @ 230 volts of power, just so I could try and work it out in my own mind what I’m talking about.

Cheers

on a sunny day sort of 25 sq m depending on .....
on a really dark cloudy day, oh 1/2 acre maybe

shoi

Is there any chance that government might consider making PV compulsory on suitable new build?
This would reduce the cost considerably as it would be eg Barratts buying loads of installations, not individual householders (and not having to pay the vast commissions these pressure sales reps will be wanting).

Cardew

RachelnPaul wrote: »

Thank you for your reply, can you please just give me some idea in lay-mans-terms of how many solar pv panels would be needed to generate 13amps @ 230 volts of power, just so I could try and work it out in my own mind what I’m talking about.

Cheers

As indicated above, the answer from the EST rep was rather strange!

He indicated you would need a 3kWp sytem - that could be made up of any number of panels to make a total of around 3,000Wp e.g. 14 x 225Wp panels = 3.15kWp or 18 x 175Wp panels etc.

However to have such as system generating '13amps @ 230 volts of power'(i.e. 3kW) would only be achieved on a cloudless day in mid-summer around Noon. Even that is assuming that your roof is the correct orientation and you don't live too far north.

Much of the time - when cloudy, or morning/evening, you might only generate between 10% to 20% of that power.

The important isssue is the total power you would generate each year, as this is the figure that attracts the big subsidy - the FIT. A 3kWp system would be expected to generate between 2,100kWh pa in N Scotland to say 3,000kWh pa in SW England.

grahamc2003

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

I've just been asked to log on and answer this question. I'm the Head of Low Carbon Technologies at the Energy Saving Trust.
.

Hi.
I hope I can ask a broader question and not appear rude.

We've already seen one question answered in a very slanted manner - someone basically required 3kW power over an unspecified period of time, and the answer was that a 3kw capacity solar panel array would suffice, which gave that 3kw of power -if ever - for only a tiny percentage of the year.

I'm sure the rep answered in good faith, and thought the answer was correct when in fact, as any professional engineer will confirm, it is incorrect, or at the very least, very misleading.

I see this sort of thing as a major drawback in most renewable technologies - those in charge or advising, while meaning well, are insufficiently equipped with the correct training to understand quantitatively the technologies.

Take your good self - not trained as an engineer, yet head of what is (or should be) an engineering department - energy (and therefore energy saving) are the domain of engineering, yet I understand you were trained as an architect. As we see all the time, people can very easily be seduced into buying pretty useless renewable technologies (home wind turbines being a prime example) due to not receiving the correct advice.

On the point of solar PV, of course people can be encouraged to take up this technology if you pay them to do so (by loading everyone else's electricity bills, thereby pushing more of the poorer members of society into fuel poverty). But the very high subsidy PV requires simply proves what an inefficient method of generation it is (in the UK). Don't you agree that if subsidies are necessary for clean electricity generation, then the most efficient methods of generation should be subsided, and not the least efficient?

Ken68

It's the same old story Graham...keep business in business. Just to meet some daft target meant for warmer countries.

Equaliser123

Generally, how portable are solar PV systems? My concern is that if, for whatever reason, we moved house and the new owner was not particularly bothered about the system, could we take them with us (physically) and transfer the FIT to a new property?

Appreciate that there will be uninstall and reinstall costs but, theoretically, is it possible?

Gizmosmum_2

Equaliser123 wrote: »

Generally, how portable are solar PV systems? My concern is that if, for whatever reason, we moved house and the new owner was not particularly bothered about the system, could we take them with us (physically) and transfer the FIT to a new property?

Appreciate that there will be uninstall and reinstall costs but, theoretically, is it possible?

Apparently not, at the minute, but that's probably because no-one has had it long enough to want to move yet.