employment tribunal - lying respondent - help?

downbutnotout10

Hello everybody,

Thank you in advance for reading this post.

I was wondering if I could get some advice... I am in the middle of an employment tribunal case (hearing is scheduled for 6 weeks time) and have realised that the respondent has told a lie regarding a potential witness for the case.

The respondent's solicitor told the lie in writing and I have two strong pieces of evidence to show it was a lie.

I would like to point this out to the tribunal and send the evidence to them.

Should I? Will it matter?

As the lie will have an impact on whether a crucial witness appears at the hearing or not, I am keen to flag this up.

But I would like to specifically say to the ET, please refer to the evidence I am submitting and the deliberate lie by the respondent and their solicitor.

I would like this lie noted - they've lied about so many things and I would like this to go on record.

Can I? Should I? Would the ET just think I am a petty and annoying tittle tattle claimant...? ;-)

I know the answer seems obvious but self representing is so stressful and you are constantly worried about doing or saying the wrong thing.

Advice would be great. Thank you everyone,

Down but Not Out 2010

DVardysShadow

Understandably you are being a bit vague about the detail, but without this it is hard to be specific.

It depends on what kind of a lie it is. If it directly refutes your case you need to deal with it directly. If it makes you look bad but does not detract from your case, you should deal with it in passing. If it is irrelevant, then consider letting it pass.

Some of this can be game playing to destroy your focus - in which case remain focussed.

downbutnotout10

Thank you very much for the response DVardysShadow - and so quickly!

Well, I issued a witness order for my ex-line manager's line manager (I was unfairly dismissed - they are arguing it was a fair redundancy) but they are now claiming X was never my manager's line manager and therefore not a relevant witness.

However, not only do I know he was her manager but I also have two pieces of evidence produced by her stating he is the manager (e.g. one of them has his signature in the box stating 'must be signed by line manager' and a formal document stating Y is managed by X).

I want X to appear at the ET... I need him to appear. At the beginning of my case (during the internal review), her key argument was that she was merely following orders. Now, they are arguing X had nothing to do with it.

There are cracks in their arguments (sorry, too scared to go into them) that I believe can only be exposed by him taking the stand.

Does this help DVardysShadow? (Sorry, you are right, I don't want to say too much, too paranoid!).

Thanks again! Down but Not Out 2010

greendollar

Hi DBNO ,

If they are stating to the Tribunal that the manager was not involved in anyway and you have evidence that says different then forward that evidence to the judge so he/she can make an informed decision as to if this witness needs to be Ordered to attend .

Good Luck .

SarEl

These are all matters for the tribunal hearing - not for any debate outside it. If you have obtained a witness order from the tribunal, as you say that you have, then the witness so ordered must turn up. It isn't an option. So what the employer or the solicitor say is not in any way relevant. You might, however, want to note that it isn't a good idea to say that solicitors are lying. They say what they have been told is the truth - whether it is or not is not their responsibility.

Obviously, one of the weaknesses in witness orders is that the tribunal can order them to attend, but it cannot make them tell the truth. So if the witness says that he had no part in this, then the tribunal will have to make the decision as to who is telling the truth or can prove their case. That is the time to debate whether and what lies are being told - not in correspondence. The only issue to raise with the tribunal is if their witness order (and it is theirs, not yours) is being refused.

downbutnotout10

Hi Greendollar, thank you, that is really useful.

I am really sorry SarEl, I think I wasn't clear and didn't explain myself properly.

I wrote to the judge asking for a witness order to be issued so that X can attend and stated that X had been Y's line manager and played a key role.

Before the judge can even respond, the solicitor has written to say that no witness order should be issued because X was never Y's line manager.

My fear now is that the judge will ignore my request for a witness order based on the lie (the lie being that X was never Y's line manager).

Sorry for not being clear.

Thank you again for responding.

greendollar

Hello again ,

Its very difficult when the respondant blatantly lies , you don't expect them to do it but I'm going through the same thing and after 2yrs nothing surprises me anymore .
They will try every trick in the book to ensure they win and blatantly lying is not something they seem to worry about . Again Good Luck but be very wary , have a look at some of the other threads , there are plenty of other tactics that are regulary used by employers and their solicitors use to stall and disrupt the process .

inmypocketnottheirs

greendollar wrote: »

They will try every trick in the book to ensure they win and blatantly lying is not something they seem to worry about .

I think this very much hits the nail on the head.

To them, the truth is not relevant, it's about winning - or at least not losing.

SarEl

downbutnotout10 wrote: »

Hi Greendollar, thank you, that is really useful.

I am really sorry SarEl, I think I wasn't clear and didn't explain myself properly.

I wrote to the judge asking for a witness order to be issued so that X can attend and stated that X had been Y's line manager and played a key role.

Before the judge can even respond, the solicitor has written to say that no witness order should be issued because X was never Y's line manager.

My fear now is that the judge will ignore my request for a witness order based on the lie (the lie being that X was never Y's line manager).

Sorry for not being clear.

Thank you again for responding.

In that case your response is that you have evidence that X was Y's line manager, and you want the witness order to prove this in tribunal. That's it. The tribunal has to decide whether it wants to hear that evidence, but they are very unlikley to hold a PHR before the hearing to hear this argument separately.

downbutnotout10

Hello everyone,

Thank you all again so much for taking the time to help me with this.

Greendollar - I am so sorry to hear your case has dragged on for so long and I really sympathise. I think the worst thing for me is knowing that I worked in a place that could be so dishonest and so corrupt.

With the risk of sounding naive and immature, how do these people sleep at night?

They tell lie after lie like it is a game and I am the one suffering from stress, insomnia, weight loss... I feel like a jibbering wreck. Greendollar, how have you survived this for two years?

inmypocketnottheirs, you're right, I guess the truth is very immaterial.

SarEl, thank you so much for your advice.

Thank you everyone!

greendollar

Hi DBNO ,

I used to get extremely angry but as time has past their increasingly pathetic attempts to gain an Order for Costs/Deposit Orders and Wasted Costs Orders now just amuse me , as do the blatant lies .
I'm still bemused as to why the Tribunal Service allow employers to ride roughshod over deadlines and Orders with complete impunity , SarEl states that Tribunals make employers pay for using such tactics when the Tribunal finally gets round to hearing the cases , I used to get more frustrated by the Tribunals response ,or lack of it , to the tactics used by my ex-employer rather than my ex-employer .
At the end of the day they will have to explain their lies to the judge , who was very switched on at the last Tribunal and didn't miss a trick .
My ex-employers did make a measly settlement offer before the last and only time we managed to get them infront of the judges (May this year) but the satisfaction I got seeing them torn to pieces about their conduct was priceless and I'm looking forward to seeing much the same again as they continue to threaten and lie about just about everything to do with my case .
They are focused on winning at all costs , attack on procedure (while admitting they have'nt followed their own or statutory procedures ) and have never answered any questions about the merits of my case .

I've now put my claim to one side and try not to dwell on it at all , its been so long now I've moved on but I am looking forward to the day its finally heard ....... and wondering how I'm going to pay their £15'000 + costs if I lose ,lol, ....no seriously such threats do not bother me at all now , their conduct has been appalling and I really can't see any judge in the land granting them anything .