Gold Rises to Record, Silver Extends Gains on Currency Concerns

getzegold

purch wrote: »

Your mates at GATA.

In case you didn't realise the A and the T in the name stand for Anti-Trust.

The U.S. antitrust laws prohibit monoplolies and unfair business practices.

GATA allege that some market participants are guilty of breaking these antitrust laws.

Everytime you quote GATA, link to their website or quote third party articles that make the same claims, it should be safe to assume that everyone reading the posts will consider that you too agree with the allegations of illegal antitrust activity.

Having a rational discussion about Gold, Silver or other PM's is certainly impossible when outrageous and unproven claims of illegal activities are continually being made.

A discussion about the multi year secular bull market in Gold and Pm's would be useful and maybe enlightening. There are many ways that participants can make large amounts of money by trading in these markets, far more than you will ever make buying coins.

But these discussions can never be had, due to rambling posts complaining about manipulation, and other rubbish that has nothing to do with actually investing or trading these markets, including the usual accusations made about anyone who dares disagree with the GATA line, that they are somehow anti Gold and PM's.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I first touched a Gold Bar in 1981, and have traded in Gold and PM's ever since.

Maybe if you ever read what is posted, you might actually learn something new, or at least see things from a different perspective.

You are mis-representing the position of GATA. The CFTC sets position limits but many of the large commercial banks are allowed position limit exemptions, this is what GATA is complaining about.

The large commercials have the following short positions, 92,000 in silver, from the COT


COMMERCIAL
Long Short
30,023 92,150


Why do you keep claiming that GATA are claiming that these are illegal positions? they are not. If position limits were enforced and the position limit exemptions were closed they would be illegal. GATA wants position limits enforced and the exemptions removed. Which is what the CFTC hearings was all about.

Outrageous and unproven claims of manipulation? look at the concentrated short positions of the commercials. As an experienced trader I'm sure you must have some idea of what a concentrated short position such as the one above is likely to do to a commodity

I will be more than happy to discuss tech anlysis, trading or any aspect of the gold market you would like to discuss whatever you want as I also trade gold and silver, forex, major indices and shares and I watch the charts all day everyday and spend everyday reading dozens of articles on all aspects of finance and the markets as thats how I make my living, full-time.

Have you never heard of front running the commercials in the gold and silver markets? a proven traders strategy for the last several years and heavily documented. I'm not entirely convinced you know as much as you claim to know.

MacsReturns

DiggerUK wrote: »

Or do I not understand a good conspiracy theory when I see one?

Remember that if you understand the conspiracy theory, you don't understand it

getzegold

Heres the latest Commitment of Traders report in gold futures for the commercial sector, I assume you are aware of the COT report

Commercials
Long 179,071
Short 478,569

The CFTC's own reports of November 2009 show that just two U.S. banks held 43 percent of the commercial net short position in gold and 68 percent of the commercial net short position in silver. In gold, these two banks were short 123,331 contracts but long only 523 contracts, and in silver they were short 41,318 contracts and long only 1,426 contracts. How improbable is it that these two banks attract most of the investors who want only to sell short?
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/204466-GATA-appeals-to-CFTC-to-act-against-manipulative-precious-metals-shorts

this is an old article simply because the actual holders of the short positions in gold and silver is now hidden, now we talk in terms of the '8 or fewer' or the '4 or fewer' commercial banks, but it is unlikely that these percentages have changed much at all

see here for explanation. https://marketforceanalysis.com/index_assets/CFTC%20HEARING%20ON%20METALS%20MARKETS.pdf

2 large commercial banks JPM HSBC hold the largest percentage of short contracts in relation to total OI this is a concentrated short position. it is a defacto manipulation strategy in an attempt to control the price movements of the underlying commodity, for profit.

getzegold

Lets think about it another way: Here we are talking about a concentrated short position in an underlying commodity

Now say for instance 1 or 2 large commercial banks owned 68% of all net commercial long contracts in a commodity, say oil for instance. What would that do to the commodity? what would that be called? it would be called attempting to 'corner the market'(hence the need for position limits) it would be called attempting to manipulate the price of the commodity for profit.

In essence there is absolutley no difference between these 2 examples.

purch

Why do you keep claiming that GATA are claiming that these are illegal positions? they are not

The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee was organized in January 1999 as a Delaware corporation to advocate and undertake litigation against illegal collusion to control the price and supply of certain financial securities, particularly securities involving gold.

http://gata.org/about/history

Outrageous and unproven claims of manipulation?

No...I the words I typed were...outrageous and unproven claims of illegal activities.

Please at least attempt to argue against points made, rather than points you imagine are being made.

GATA were the main instigators of anti-trust lawsuits filed in US Federal Courts against those it believe are involved in illegal price manipulation and fixing.

So far they have failed to get a positive result.

2 large commercial banks JPM HSBC hold the largest percentage of short contracts in relation to total OI this is a concentrated short position. it is a defacto manipulation strategy in an attempt to control the price movements of the underlying commodity, for profit.

And ??

This not a discussion about whether it is happening, or whether it's right or wrong.

Is it illegal or not, is the only thing up for debate.

Whatever happens, it will not (cannot) continue forever, and the resulting spike in prices will certainly overshadow the recent bull market in PM's

getzegold

purch wrote: »

The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee was organized in January 1999 as a Delaware corporation to advocate and undertake litigation against illegal collusion to control the price and supply of certain financial securities, particularly securities involving gold.

http://gata.org/about/history



No...I the words I typed were...outrageous and unproven claims of illegal activities.

Please at least attempt to argue against points made, rather than points you imagine are being made.

GATA were the main instigators of anti-trust lawsuits filed in US Federal Courts against those it believe are involved in illegal price manipulation and fixing.

So far they have failed to get a positive result.



And ??

This not a discussion about whether it is happening, or whether it's right or wrong.

Is it illegal or not, is the only thing up for debate.

Whatever happens, it will not (cannot) continue forever, and the resulting spike in prices will certainly overshadow the recent bull market in PM's

Apologies I thought you denied the existance of any kind of manipulation at all, maybe I was confusing you another poster.
So basically we simple disagree on the definition of illegal and wether these activities should be classed as illegal or not.

GATA simply maintains that these positions are infact 'illegal' but that the position limits exemptions allow them to be classed as 'legal' when they shouldn't be. I agree with you these positions are not illegal, but if position limits are enforced and exemptions repudiated then these positions will become illegal and must be unwound causing the prices to rise just, like you said:

Whatever happens, it will not (cannot) continue forever, and the resulting spike in prices will certainly overshadow the recent bull market in PM's