Penalty Fare Notice for a child on a bus

joanneinuk

Hello everyone

I have come on here for advice please. Last week my 15 year old son boarded a london bus to college. After getting on he realised that he did not have his wallet (and therefore Oyster card) in his pocket. The bus driver, waved him on and said not to worry. A couple of stops later 2 inspectors boarded the bus. They approached my son who explained that he did not have his oyster card with him but the bus driver let him on the inspectors said something to the effect of "don't worry, NORMALLY we would give you a fine, but if you give us your name and address, mums phone number....don't do it again....blah blah blah. They implied to my son that nothing further was going to happen.

A couple of days later I have received a letter from Transport for London IRCAS addressed to Parent or Guardian of C******* so not to me personally. It then goes on to say

Dear Sir/Madam

As you were unable to show a valid ticket or other authority to travel, you were recently issued with a Penalty Fare Notice under the Greater London Authority Act 1999...............

Now firstly, my son was not issued if a PFN, he said that the particulars that he gave were written on what looked like a note pad.

Secondly, I don't feel it is fair that the driver gavehis permission for my son to board the bus and then this to happen.

They are asking me to pay £50 fine (reduced to £25 if I pay promptly). As a single parent, working part time and struggling to make ends meet I can ill afford this

Do I have a leg to stand on with an appeal and if so can you please give me some ideas on what to say in the letter?

Thank you in advance

Joanne

Stigy

Are you sure your son wasn't given a Penalty Fare Notice? It would appear he was, as IRCAS wouldn't be writing to you otherwise. Why would the RPI say there's nothing to worry about, and then do this anyway? The RPI certainly has nothing to lose by issuing a PF. If he DIDN'T actually issue one, then the RPI concerned has alot of explaining to do. I'm sure, as you're aware, some little darlings have been known to bend the truth if it means them escaping trouble...Just my initial thoughts.

joanneinuk

Hi Stigy

My son told me what happened as soon as he got in from college, he said the details were written on a pad and he was told not to worry. I know when my son is lying and likewise my son would have no reason to lie to me about being given a PFN

I was wondering if the inspector deliberately did this thinking that if he explained about the fine then perhaps my son would lie about his particulars? (which of course he could have done but didn't)

I have just asked my son again and told him that they have cameras on buses so it could be proved if a PFN was given but he states definately he was given nothing but a slap on the wrist so to speak

Should the driver have let my son on? If only he hadn't have done so my son would have returned home and got his pass. The drivers permission made my son feel it was ok as a one off

Stigy

joanneinuk wrote: »

Hi Stigy

My son told me what happened as soon as he got in from college, he said the details were written on a pad and he was told not to worry. I know when my son is lying and likewise my son would have no reason to lie to me about being given a PFN

I was wondering if the inspector deliberately did this thinking that if he explained about the fine then perhaps my son would lie about his particulars? (which of course he could have done but didn't)

I have just asked my son again and told him that they have cameras on buses so it could be proved if a PFN was given but he states definately he was given nothing but a slap on the wrist so to speak

Should the driver have let my son on? If only he hadn't have done so my son would have returned home and got his pass. The drivers permission made my son feel it was ok as a one off

No, the driver shouldn't really have let you son on the bus. I would appeal the notice on these grounds, as if ANY staff member gives their permission, chances are there's no grounds for a PFN. Trouble is, it's proving it. The RPIs actions suggest that he knew the driver have given permission. You say the RPI wrote details in a pad? Was it just like a notebook, or official paperwork?

Livingthedream

I'm with stigy on this one, RPI's have a procedure to follow if they issue a Penalty fare, if this procedure wasn't followed correctly then the Penalty fare is invalid. However, proving it is the hard part, you could try and appeal stating that your son didn't get a Penalty fare and wish to see a original copy from the RPI involved, hoping that the RPI can't show one?

Or ask if you can come to arrangement that you will pay the £25 over a few weeks, stating 'as a single parent, working part time and struggling to make ends meet I can ill afford this' or they will have to take it to court to get the full amount.

TfL won't take it to court unless they have to, especially for £25 and thought of a court pick over their terms and conditions of the penalty fare.

joanneinuk

Thank you for your replies so far

My son explained that the inspector had a notebook with lined paper. On the sheet of paper there were other people's names addresses.

My son thought that even though the inspector needed these details to let him/me getting away with a fine.

He was asked his name, address, date of birth, parent/guardian name and my phone number. This was simply written on a plain pad with the other names.

Although I cannot afford this fine out of principle I do not wish to pay it as I feel things have not been dealt with correctly.

Is there somewhere I can see/read the procedure that inspectors are meant to follow so I can quote this in my appeal? Would my son have been asked to sign the PFN?

Hammyman

Stigy wrote: »

No, the driver shouldn't really have let you son on the bus.

Are you convinced about this? I'm sure that with him being a minor they have to.

Stigy

joanneinuk wrote: »

Thank you for your replies so far

My son explained that the inspector had a notebook with lined paper. On the sheet of paper there were other people's names addresses.

My son thought that even though the inspector needed these details to let him/me getting away with a fine.

He was asked his name, address, date of birth, parent/guardian name and my phone number. This was simply written on a plain pad with the other names.

Although I cannot afford this fine out of principle I do not wish to pay it as I feel things have not been dealt with correctly.

Is there somewhere I can see/read the procedure that inspectors are meant to follow so I can quote this in my appeal? Would my son have been asked to sign the PFN?

There's guidelines for PFN issues. Google is your friend! :rotfl:

joanneinuk

Hammyman wrote: »

Are you convinced about this? I'm sure that with him being a minor they have to.

But if that is the case then surely they can't have it both ways, will let child on the bus but may fine the parent? Seems unfair to me. My son did not beg or plead with the bus driver to let him on, he fumbled around, checking his pockets for his wallet, couldn't find it and the driver ushered him on whilst the bus was still stationary.

Another thought is, is it for me to prove that the didn't issue the PFN or for them to prove they did? There are cameras on the buses which would prove my son's case.

With parking tickets I understand that they have to prove they put the notice on the car (hence them taking pictures of the ticket on the car), not sure if the same applies to these type of fines.

joanneinuk

Stigy, I have tried googling, did that before i came on here. Also looked on the tfl website and called london travel information

Stigy

Hammyman wrote: »

Are you convinced about this? I'm sure that with him being a minor they have to.

Sorry, forgot we were talking about a minor here! I suppose there's a duty of care on TfL's part...