Child benefit to be scrapped for higher rate tax payers from 2013

StevieJ

bendix wrote: »

Deductive logic is not your strongest point, is it Stevie?

To argue that the logical consequence of removing benefits from those who don't need them is the removal of ALL benefits is the strangest proposition I have ever heard.

How can anyone intelligent seriously say universal benefits make sense? The very phrase is an oxymoron. If a benefit is universal then everyone gets it; ergo it's not a benefit.

You obviously don't recognise hyperbole when it is used for effect the point being universal benefits are used to ensure the support of the middle classes for benefits primarily aimed at the poor.

StevieJ

bendix wrote: »

The government has explained this adnauseum. People either don't want to listen to the reason or are a bit thick.

So let's make it simple. The government understands that their reasoning on this looks strange, and they are aware of the anomolies it throws up.

However, to base it on household income would require means-testing, an expensive and time-consuming process that would actually cost more than the savings proposed.

There. Does that help?

They are asking HR tax payers to say on the tax form whether they are in receipt of child benefit, why can't they ask them if they earn over £55k joint income and are in receipt of child benefit (could even base it on previous year) rocket science it is not

silvercar

If partners A & B live together and have a child, do they both claim but get a single payment, do you submit a joint claim, or do you decide who the primary carer is and only they can claim?

Presumably the payment must be linked to the child somehow, otherwise partners could end up both claiming independently that they are looking after the same kid to try to get paid double?

At the moment one parent claims. You have to submit a copy of a birth certificate to claim, so the child benefit is paid for the child (and therefore only once) to whoever applies.

Split families with more than one child that live separately can and do claim separately so that they get the higher first child amount for two children. You can only claim for children that live with you.

RenovationMan

olly300 wrote: »

I've explained before -

Child Benefit is administered by the Treasury. So comes out of their pot of money.

Child tax credits etc is administered by the DWP.

They are two different government departments.

There is lots of internal politics when they create new, or move departments focus around.

And while Child Benefit was a universal benefit paid to all parents of children between 0 and 16 or 18 if in further education it made sense to pay this via the treasury. However, how we have a crude form of means testing, this should be taken away from the treasury and moved to the DWP, allowing it to be merged with CTC and properly means tested.

For the record (again, because a lot of posts on this thread have been deleted my the moderators) I agree that people who earn over £50k should not receive CB, but even more than that, COUPLES who earn over a combined £50k should not receive it either. I also think if CB was combined with CTC we could see tapering introduced which means more goes to those that earn less and less to those who earn more, which is the cornerstone of a welfare system.

RenovationMan

StevieJ wrote: »

They are asking HR tax payers to say on the tax form whether they are in receipt of child benefit, why can't they ask them if they earn over £55k joint income and are in receipt of child benefit (could even base it on previous year) rocket science it is not

Only HR taxpayers generally file tax returns. A couple who are both on £40k and on PAYE would not be expected to self assess and so could not tick a box.

StevieJ

RenovationMan wrote: »

Only HR taxpayers generally file tax returns. A couple who are both on £40k and on PAYE would not be expected to self assess and so could not tick a box.

No mention of HR tax payer, only complications eg child benefit

if you have relatively straightforward tax affairs and already pay tax through PAYE (Pay As You Earn) you probably won't need to complete a tax return. But if you have more complicated tax affairs - or income from several sources - you may need to complete one.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/SelfAssessmentYourTaxReturn/DG_4017116

RenovationMan

StevieJ wrote: »

No mention of HR tax payer, only complications eg child benefit

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/SelfAssessmentYourTaxReturn/DG_4017116

Can you imagine the cost and opportunity for disaster if every parent had to self assess each year. The revenue is struggling under the weight of the tax system already. :eek:

GeneHunt_2

RenovationMan wrote: »

I agree that people who earn over £50k should not receive CB, but even more than that, COUPLES who earn over a combined £50k should not receive it either.

Totally agree. Can that be so hard for the government to do?

GeneHunt_2

RenovationMan wrote: »

because a lot of posts on this thread have been deleted my the moderators

Why please? anyone?

olly300

RenovationMan wrote: »

And while Child Benefit was a universal benefit paid to all parents of children between 0 and 16 or 18 if in further education it made sense to pay this via the treasury. However, how we have a crude form of means testing, this should be taken away from the treasury and moved to the DWP, allowing it to be merged with CTC and properly means tested.

The government hasn't announced what it's doing with CTC and the like so we need to wait for the spending review.

RenovationMan wrote: »

For the record (again, because a lot of posts on this thread have been deleted my the moderators)

When people make personal attacks on other people who don't agree with them and can argue logically regardless of their own personal circumstances it's not surprising posts are removed.

RenovationMan wrote: »

I agree that people who earn over £50k should not receive CB, but even more than that, COUPLES who earn over a combined £50k should not receive it either. I also think if CB was combined with CTC we could see tapering introduced which means more goes to those that earn less and less to those who earn more, which is the cornerstone of a welfare system.

I don't suspect most people will have a problem with that.