Your Co-Op Visa Electron is now a Visa Debit: alternatives for flight bookings?

tightarsey

Follow up to existing formal complaint.

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(Italics show reply received from Smile Via Secure Message)

For the purposes of this letter following definitions apply

*‘Visa Electron Card’ ; a valid card issued by Smile beginning 4508, specifically, with a Visa Electron logo, not yet expired, in use/used by existing customers. This is the card I have.

* ‘Online Debit Card’, a ambiguous term used internally by Smile describing a newly issued card (since March 2010) issued with a Visa logo, beginning 4508 without a Visa Electron logo. The term ‘Online Debit Card’ has no relation to the three licensed Visa Card types/bin classifications, which are Visa Electron, Visa Debit (formally Delta), Visa Credit. Visa itself is not phasing out the Visa Electron Card; this Branding is used throughout Europe.

I received several replies both verbal and online regarding my complaint regarding Visa Electron Cards.

I want to make clear now as part of my formal complaint that Smile has given me a great deal of ‘misinformation’ over the phone through your call centre operation and via secure messages. The replies I have received are both deceitful and untrue, whether this is intentional or not, customers deserve better. For the purposes of this formal complaint I believe it is intentional.

I specifically single out Call Centre Operator ‘xxxx’ who I spoke to via phone, whose complete disinterest in the problem at hand and ability to treat the matter as a ‘non-issue’ was extremely apparent in by tone and attitude. This is certainly not a ‘non issue’ it affects 1000’s of existing Smile Customers, holders of valid Visa Electron Cards (4508) who are being financially disadvantaged by Smile actions.

Due to the serious nature of this complaint due to number affected, I need to be specific regarding my complaint.

My Complaint has nothing to do with the fees charged by online retailers, online retailers have NOT changed their existing systems. Fees charged by online retailers relate to three categories; Visa Electron, Visa Debit (formally Delta) or Visa Credit. There is no such card/term ‘Online Debit Card’, in relation to card processing. Online Retailers use the bin card type (first 4 digits) information to categorise a transaction into one of these three categories, and charge fees accordingly.

My Complaint has nothing to do with the new issuing of ‘Online Debit Cards’ (as termed by Smile) to new customers or as replacement for Visa Electron Cards, ‘as such’. (I do not have this card)

My complaint does though, relate to the consequences of new issuing ‘Online Debit Cards’ with card numbers beginning 4508, as this has had a direct effect on existing customers of Visa Electron Cards. The cards have inadvertently being classed ‘the same’ by Smile - issued with bin type 4508, when they are clearly different cards. This is the basis my Complaint.

I expect Visa Electron cards (4508), to be processed as Visa Electron Cards until they expire. This is not happening.

The ‘Online Debit Card’ is clearly designated a ‘Visa Debit’ card for processing purposes and therefore should have been issued with bin type 4988 , using Smile’s existing ‘Visa Debit’ bin type, not the bin type 4508 ‘Visa Electron’. Smile themselves have stated it is a ‘Debit Card’ replacement for Visa Electron Cards.

I reiterate: The ambiguous term ‘Online Debit Card’ issued with Visa logo has no ‘real world’ card processing equivalent; Visa Licensed Branding is Visa Electron, Visa Debit or Visa Credit.

Issues brought up by Smile, relating to the how transactions are authorised when funds are not available/overdraft fees have no relevance to my complaint.

How and why Electron cards were issued has no relevance to my complaint. The fact that I have a valid one until 03/11 is relevant to my Complaint.

My Complaint is specifically, regarding Visa Electron Cards*

In reply to the secure message I received, I wish to reply to each sentence/paragraph in turn.

‘The card which was previously called an Electron card is now issued without the Electron logo, the card is now for our purposes called an online debit card’
Visa itself is not phasing out the Visa Electron Card; this Branding is used throughout Europe.

There is no such card/term ‘online debit card’, in relation to Visa card processing/Visa Card bin types (first 4 digits) classifications, which are Visa Electron, Visa Debit (formally Delta), Visa Credit.
Online Retailers use the bin card type (first 4 digits) information to categorise a transaction into one of these three categories, and charge fees accordingly. I have no complaint with how Retailers do this, they are relying on information issued by Smile i.e the card’s bin type.

this change was enacted from March 2010 however in terms of functionality it is exactly the same.
This statement is untrue, ‘misinformation’ - the functionality of the Visa Electron card (how it is processed by UK Payments is now a 'Visa Debit' in terms of functionality/processing terms. This change took place around the 1st October 2010. This change was made by Smile, NOT by Online Retailers. Existing customers did not receive notification to this change in their terms and conditions.

I’m using the same Visa Electron Card*, on the same Website, which the Retailer have informed me have not been modified, selecting the same settings (Visa Electron) yet I’m now charged £9 extra by flybe.com, as flybe's card services attempts to process the card as Visa Debit, due to changes made by Smile, no one else.

Retailers use the bin number associated with the card '4508' to recognise the card type - this being Visa Credit, Visa Debit or Visa Electron, the three 'brandings' of Visa, There is no such
processing method 'online debit' as a payment method in terms of Visa - its does not exist.
Its either Visa Electron or Visa Debit, or Visa Credit .Which is it?
Up until 1st October 2010, Existing issued Cooperative Visa Electron Cards are 4508, Visa Debit are 4988, were processed as Visa Electron and Visa Debit respectively. After 1st October 2010, both card types are processed as Visa Debit.

It is important for me to state that the Electron card was designed with a purpose in mind, that was to help people avoid having transactions authorised when funds were not available, having authorised transactions when funds are not available can lead to informal overdraft fees ect.
This paragraph is irrelevant.
Therefore Electron cards were issued out to customers experiencing financial difficulties. The status for authorisations in this respect has not changed, funds have to be available, and if an authorisation cannot be requested then a decline will result automatically.
This paragraph is irrelevant.

The name has now been reclassified from Electron to Online debit, but it is the same card in all respects but name.
Untrue – It’s not just the name that has been reclassified. It’s also how the card is processed.
The is no such Licensed Visa term ‘Online debit’, the issued card under Visa licensing terms is either an Electron Card or a Visa Debit Card, or a Visa Credit Card; these are three payment methods recognised by Visa.
The card has being reclassified from Electron to Visa Debit, ‘Online Debit’ does not exist. This is a change to Smile terms and conditions, to which existing customers of the Visa Electron Card* have not being notified.

There is still no cheque guarantee facility on the card. Part of the change was so that those who have had financial difficulties are not embarrassed by making card payments in public using chip and pin terminals for example.
The Paragraph is irrelevant. Having a cheque guarantee facility on the card doesn’t not effect how a card is processed, the Visa card bin type (first 4 digits) defines how payments are classified and processed.

My Complaint has nothing to do with the issuing of ‘Online Debit Cards’ (ambiguous term used by Smile) as replacement for Visa Electron Cards, ‘as such’, but my complaint does relate to the consequence of issuing ‘Online Debit Cards’ with card numbers beginning 4508, as this has had a direct effect on existing customers of Visa Electron Cards.
The problem being both cards have been issued with card number beginning 4508.
Smile incorrectly issued these new ‘Online Debit Cards’ 4508, as they are clearly ‘Visa Debit card in terms of card processing, and therefore should have been issued with number beginning 4988 , which is the bin type ‘Visa Debit’ for Smile Visa Cards.
This is the essence of my complaint.

By issuing ‘Online Debit Cards’ as 4508 Cards, then switching the bin type at the start of October, the consequence of this was to also switch all existing Visa Electron Cards* to Visa Debit, for card processing purposes. This would require a change to the terms and conditions, which was not received.

The fact a particular merchant applies a charge for using this card now, when they did not previously is due to their own policy.
This statement is completely false,untrue and deceitful. The reason the merchant applies a charge relates directly to the bin number and the categorisation of the card by Smile.
There are only three types of Visa Categorisation, Visa Electron, Visa Debit, or Visa Credit –
‘Online Debit’ has no real world equivalent. Visa Electron Cards have been reclassified ‘Visa Debit’ for card processing purposes, and without informing existing customers.

We do not apply the charge for the transaction therefore there is no reason why we would consider refunding you for a charge that is applied to your account by another organisation.
You do not apply the charge but you do apply the classification of the card, which has been incorrectly reclassified for existing Visa Electron Cards*, under Visa licensing terms -since 1st October 2010. I therefore, find Smile liable for my financial losses, as I’m being financially disadvantaged by incorrect procedures being applied to the processing of card transactions relating to my existing Visa Electron Card*. There has been no notification to customer of this change in terms and conditions, therefore Smile is liable under banking code of practice.

You stated that they refused to accept the online debit card for the transaction, you will need to confirm with Aer Lingus as to why they will not accepts your online debit card when the vast majority of organisations do. If they still accept Visa Electron cards then they should still be able to accept this card.

Aer Lingus, use two forms of validation on the Aer Lingus Website. First, when you select ‘Visa Electron’ as the card type from the drop down box, the card is validated against their own database of values to check the card is a ‘Visa Electron’ Card. The card passes this test. The second is when the card details are passed to the card processing company. This check fails as the card has been unlawfully reclassified by Smile as Visa Debit. The transaction cannot be completed.
A Smile Visa Debit Card starting 4988 was then used, the two transactions completed but incurred additional fees of £20. Smile is responsible as the Visa Electron Card is being incorrectly classified by Card Processing Systems. This change was made by Smile, not Retailers.

I can appreciate that you may have spoken to Aer Lingus and they have given you information which has inferred that we are somewhat responsible for the charge, however we issue you a debit card, whether that card format is accepted by a retailer is dependant on them as we cannot insist that they use the card.

Cards issued by Smile under Visa licensing terms can have either a Visa Electron, Visa Debit, or Visa Credit bin classification in terms of card processing. The card format accepted by the retailer is dependent on one of these card types , as defined by Visa. There is no such thing as ‘Online Debit’ straddling both Visa Electron and Visa Debit formats. If my card has been reclassified Visa Debit, I should have been notified of these through my terms and conditions. This has not happened. Smile is therefore liable to my losses, as I’m being financially disadvantaged by Smile’s mistake..

The card is a Visa card, and as they have a visa license they can accept and make payments using visa, the fact they apply an ambiguous acceptance and charging policy is an issue you would need to take up with Aer Lingus.

It’s Smile applying the ambiguous ‘Online Visa’ branding under their Visa Licensing terms, my card states Visa Electron, I expect it to be processed as a Visa Electron Card, not as the ambiguous term ‘Online Debit’ which has no real world Visa equivalent. It’s either a Visa Electron or Visa Debit. If it’s a Visa Debit, I’ve not been notified to this change in my terms and conditions, Smile is therefore liable to the financial losses as a result of this mistake.

The Office of Fair Trading have stated that it is at the discretion of the company concerned which charges they apply, so long as they are not hidden.
As stated my complaint is not with the Retailer, it is with Smile itself.


End of Follow Up Complaint

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jamesbrownontheroad

Another update from me. When I started this thread back in September, I sent a complaint to Co-Operative Bank similar to those shared above. This morning I received a letter as follows:

Dear Mr. OnTheRoad,

Further to our earlier letter acknowledging your complaint, I am writing to let you know that my enquiries into the matters you raised are continuing.

I have been looking into your complaint but unfortunately, I am not yet in a position to advise you of the outcome because our investigations are continuing.

I will be in a position to reply fully to your complaint once I am in possession of all the necessary information. I will contact you again as soon as possible and, in any event, within the next four weeks.

Yours sincerely,

PP xxxx xxxx

Customer Feedback Consultant
On behalf of The Co-Operative Bank

In my experience, when I company is happy to fob off a complaint, they don't send "placeholder" letters like this more than once. I interpret this as a positive sign... Co-Operative weren't expecting existing customers to be inconvenienced or angry about the change to their cards. Watch this space...

tightarsey

Good Initial News, but still needs to go to Ombudsman - I've received an official reply from Cooperative. They have refunded my £18 in fees for flybe, but also will refund all fees relating to the incorrect bin card type until March 2011, the expiry date of my Visa Electon Card. Cooperative/Smile have conceded they are in the wrong, but have NOT conceded to do this for ALL Customers.
I also have £20 in fees charged by Aer Lingus, where I was unable to use my Visa Electron Card, as their systems/the website check recognise the card as Visa Electron, but the payment system treats the card as Visa Debit - so you cannot even use the card on the Aer Lingus Site. Instead had to book with my Visa Debit (Delta) Card - and incur £20 in fees.

I received so much rubbish/misinformation from Cooperative/Smile that to say they are 'Ethical' / morally sound is a joke. Customer Service have at times made out my complaint was trivial, a 'non issue', avoiding branded Visa terms such as 'Electron', 'Visa Debit'. Tried to make out the card issued by Smile is neither an Electron Card or a Visa Debit, which is boll*cks.
The letter received was even signed 'D. Myszor' (as in Miser! - well I do watch the pennies/and the banks), which I am assured is not taking the p*ss, but is really the person's name dealing with the complaint. They also employ an 'A. Mugg' I'm presume. Having this detail checked too, because nothing worse than arrogant departments having their little 'in' jokes.

This has taken hours upon hours of research, to narrow down the complaint and get a result which Smile/Cooperative couldn't back out of, sorry not accepting the offer of £18, but I expect Smile to publish an Apology on their Website, and ways in which Customers can reclaim fees incurred, which they have agreed to repay me. Doubt they will agree - so will forward complaint to Ombudsman for resolution.

Cooperative/Smile state they made this move because they didn't want to pay a second fee to Visa International in relation to having two card bin numbers 4508(Electron) and 4988(Debit). I bet their thinking that paying that fee might have been cheaper than paying back all the fees/charges incurred by customers as a result of this BIG Mistake. If you have had to pay charges as a result of this - make a complaint.

Lizzie75

Seriously good for you, for fighting this one!

The card charges with airlines are beyond ridiculous....and completely unfair. Fair enough to charge one credit card transaction but to do it per flight, even though it's just ONE transaction....is nothing but theft. Book a flight for a family of four and you pay £36 JUST to pay....utter madness.

I travel to NI a lot....and have just applied for and received an electron card with Halifax....it expires in 2013, so am trusting the bank will honour the electron status till then....but if not...I will follow your lead and kick up a stink!

Thanks for keeping us posted....so good to learn from how others do it!

StuieUK34

Here here.... rock on dude, i'm doing battle in a similar way at the moment (not visa related mind!) But good to see peeps standing up to big firms!

Hastobe_Katt

Good for you on fighting back! Banks do seem to think they can impose charges / changes on customers and that they will get away with it as most customers either won't notice or won't bother to argue the toss. Customer apathy is factored into 'product development' - i.e. that a percentage of customers will keep a product even when it makes no sense just because they can't be bothered to change. (As an aside, those that do change are nicknamed 'rate tarts'.)

We are in the same boat. We had an electron card on our Co-op bank account which expires in Jan 2011. Fortunately, ours was still accepted when we purchased Jet2 flights a couple of weeks ago but it won't be renewed in January. We have now opened a Halifax Easycash account specifically for the electron card - but we are closing the Co-op account. Co-op aren't my favourite bank. Having worked for them (and watched their behaviour over the recent mergers) I have no desire to continue giving them my business now I've left the company.

Our main bank account is with the Nationwide. (We have a place abroad and their debit card was the cheapest way to access our sterling funds without doing a sizable transfer through a broker.) Given the recent NW debit card charges, we have just got a Halifax Clarity card and drew equal amounts on both this and the NW debit card when we were abroad a week or so back - just to compare. Given the new NW debit card charges we are planning to reduce the balance in our NW account to a minimum and open one of the new 'best buy' accounts (Halifax or Santander) as our main a/c. Since 1 Nov we have tried to keep all our overseas spend on our Nationwide credit card as that is currently the cheapest option.

We also have a 1% cash back card for use in the UK and have a CaxtonFx card that we preload just to use for Ryanair flights. We'll soon have enough cards to play snap - the challenge is in educating the OH on which card to use when!

stickman

tightarsey wrote: »

Good Initial News, but still needs to go to Ombudsman - I've received an official reply from Cooperative. They have refunded my £18 in fees for flybe, but also will refund all fees relating to the incorrect bin card type until March 2011, the expiry date of my Visa Electon Card. Cooperative/Smile have conceded they are in the wrong, but have NOT conceded to do this for ALL Customers.
I also have £20 in fees charged by Aer Lingus, where I was unable to use my Visa Electron Card, as their systems/the website check recognise the card as Visa Electron, but the payment system treats the card as Visa Debit - so you cannot even use the card on the Aer Lingus Site. Instead had to book with my Visa Debit (Delta) Card - and incur £20 in fees.

I received so much rubbish/misinformation from Cooperative/Smile that to say they are 'Ethical' / morally sound is a joke. Customer Service have at times made out my complaint was trivial, a 'non issue', avoiding branded Visa terms such as 'Electron', 'Visa Debit'. Tried to make out the card issued by Smile is neither an Electron Card or a Visa Debit, which is boll*cks.
The letter received was even signed 'D. Myszor' (as in Miser! - well I do watch the pennies/and the banks), which I am assured is not taking the p*ss, but is really the person's name dealing with the complaint. They also employ an 'A. Mugg' I'm presume. Having this detail checked too, because nothing worse than arrogant departments having their little 'in' jokes.

This has taken hours upon hours of research, to narrow down the complaint and get a result which Smile/Cooperative couldn't back out of, sorry not accepting the offer of £18, but I expect Smile to publish an Apology on their Website, and ways in which Customers can reclaim fees incurred, which they have agreed to repay me. Doubt they will agree - so will forward complaint to Ombudsman for resolution.

Cooperative/Smile state they made this move because they didn't want to pay a second fee to Visa International in relation to having two card bin numbers 4508(Electron) and 4988(Debit). I bet their thinking that paying that fee might have been cheaper than paying back all the fees/charges incurred by customers as a result of this BIG Mistake. If you have had to pay charges as a result of this - make a complaint.

Thanks for your excellent posts re electron issues.
I too have a similar issue in that my co-op visa debit is still being classed as electron in some retail/on line outlets. I spoke to co-op who indeed said that they had simply rebadged the card to visa debit BUT then went on to say they kept the same BIN 4508 which still in some cases comes up as electron. They said it was up to the retailers to up date their system to take account of this change in card "type". When I asked why they did'ntjust give a visa debit BIN I was told that that number was for their current a/c holders and all the benefits that card gave ie no authorisation,cheque guarantee etc etc , these are not afforded those with basic cashminder a/c.
This brings me on to the AID (Application Id)

This is simply a reference on the chip, that must match that of the card reader before they can "talk" to each other.

The card reader will have a list of Aid numbers that it can do business with, when you stick your card into the machine it checks if your card belongs to a recognised card scheme by cross referencing the number on the chip with its list.

With reference to the co op card, the aid is electron, but has a visa debit label, but as electron is going to be in the list on the card machine, it works.

In places that don't accept electron, they omit the electron aid from their card machines/tills so when its swiped the machines says "your not on the list so we can't do business"

Positive Authorisation Mandatory Service Code.

The AID number has absolutely nothing to do with your card being online or offline. It is just there to make sure the equipment is singing off the same hymn sheet.

The only number that dictates whether your card is online or off is a PMC ( Positive Authorisation Mandatory Service Code. x0x for offline cards and x2x for online cards. There is no what of seeing that number its embedded in the chip.
X2X require authorisation. So could co-op just change/add the AID to their existing visa debit cards and use that BIN.
Thanks

tightarsey

Attention all Co-operative / Smile Visa Electron Cardholders.

Finally at the point of taking the ‘Visa Electron cards reclassified as Visa Debit’ Complaint to the Financial Ombudsman. I need help to concisely combine all the problems Cardholders have had (still having!) regarding being charged Visa Debit Card fees when attempting to use as their Co-operative Visa Electron Card or Smile Visa Electron Card.

It mostly affects Travel/Airline sites where they distinguish between Visa Debit / Visa Electron Card Payments. Fees are charged for Visa Debit, but not generally for Visa Electron. Ryanair are the exception, they charge the same for both Visa Debit and Visa Electron, with no fee for prepaid Mastercard.
Aer Lingus
Bmibaby.com
Flybe.com
flythomascook.com

If you have been (since 1st Oct 2010) or a currently being charged a Transaction Fee for using your Visa Electron Card (card must show the Visa Electron symbol) due to it being reclassified a Visa Debit Card, list the website and the fee incurred. I’ll summarise the list of problem as part of the complaint. Or if you are unable to use your card on certain site such as Aer Lingus, as the card type is unrecognized and have had to use a different card to make the transaction (as I did). Need a list of fees for each airline, difference charges between Visa Electron / Visa Debit. Thanks for the help!

TAGS: Formal Complaint,Financial Ombudsman,Financial Services Authority,FSA,Co-operative,Cooperative,Coop,Smile,Visa,Visa Electron,Cooperative Visa Electron,Co-operative Visa Electron,Coop Visa Electron, Cooperative Visa Debit, Co-operative Visa Debit, Co-op Visa Debit,Cooperative Visa Card,Co-operative Visa Card,Smile Visa Electron,Visa Debit,Smile Visa Debit, Aer Lingus.com, bmibaby.com, flythomascook.com, flybe.com, Visa Fee,Visa Debit Card Fee, Visa Electron Fee, Transaction, Transaction Fee,Transaction Problem,Airline Charge Charges,Mastercard,Solo,Switch, bin number,4508,4988,Cardholder,reclassified,Problem,£10 fee,fee per flight,£4.50 per flight,Card fee,Booking Fee.

StuieUK34

Hiya,
I'm with you on this, but for the opposite reasons.... I dont like paying airline fee's or any fee's to be honest
However, i like the idea of having my Co-Op card appear as a Visa Debit card, purely for the reason that my credit rating sucks, so therefore i have a basic account....
So when i goto shops, or petrol stations even, i like the fact that i can use my card in the Chip & Pin machines in the forecourt as opposed to queueing in the shop to pay the bill....
HOWEVER...... am finding that most petrol stations flash up DECLINED as soon as i put the card in, despite having thousands in my account, so therefore still have to go in the shop to pay..... And when it comes round to hiring a car in Las Vegas and Orlando in June, i dont use Credit Cards, and the Car rental firms confirm they accept VISA DEBIT cards as 'security style holds'.......
If i turn up and they say you cant have a car cos your card is an Electron, despite saying DEBIT on there, i will be pretty stuck to get to where i need to get to!
So i need to get my card as a proper Debit card!

tightarsey

Hi StuieUK34,

I agree with you too, pity Smile didn't issue the Visa 'Online Debit' Card (no Electron logo) with the bin number starting 4988 - (a Smile Visa Debit Card bin type), then we would both be happy. By issuing the new replacement cards Visa 'Online Debit' Cards (no Electron logo) with existing card numbers starting 4508 (a Smiile Visa Electron Card bin type), they have managed alienate customers requiring a Visa Debit Card and customers requiring a Visa Electron Card.

Depends what you see as worse, being unable to use your card or being able to use your card but charged a fee unrelated to the card issued, these are branded/trademarked terms that Cooperative are breaching - Visa Debit, Visa Electron, what's to stop them charging Visa Credit Card fees in relation to your 'Online Debit' Card.

Internally the cards are seen as Visa Electron (by the chip-their AID Number), externally (bin type) - online they are seen as Visa Debit. ++This switch was made in October 2010 by Cooperative, not card processing companies++ Card Processing Companies just process cards based on the info issued by the banks. It doesn't satisfy either customer. It's an f**in mess!

It only seems to benefit the likes of Cooperative Travel Business/FlyThomasCook.com that charge £2.50 per fight, per passenger. i.e. £10 extra (minimum 2 passengers) when I have a Genuine Visa Electron Card by classifying my card as Visa Debit. Vested Interest it seems, or am I just jumping to conclusions regarding the tie up with between Coop and Thomas Cook, and the travel industry as a whole?

'Cooperative Bank - seem to be redefining the meaning of ethical banking, or is it just the standards have been lowered recently?'