Is this legal?

Flibertigibit

I have lived in a H.A. two bedroomed shared ownership flat since it was built in 2006/7. It is heated by four Dimplex panel heaters, an electric fire in the lounge and a wall fan thing in the bathroom. It is, and always has been, on an Economy 7 tariff, which I assume was agreed between the builders and Powergen (the suppliers when I moved in but not now).

I was never really sure about the need for Economy 7 as the panel heaters use electricity at the daytime rate, and the only things I do at night are heat water for an hour and a half and run the washing machine 3 times a week. However, I have only just discovered that the whole situation is actually worse than I realised because daytime rates if you are on Economy 7 are even higher than a "normal tariff".

I am a pensioner and am very worried about my ability to afford proper heating this winter, so for now I am not turning it on during the daytime, though it is on in the evening, which I know is still counted at the daytime rate. Then I got a niggle about something that I heard about H.!!!. having to put in affordable heating (or is all house builders?) but maybe that's only if you're a H.A.tenant?

I have been looking into various options, but as we have no gas, we're talking about some kind of storage heaters, which I don't get good vibes on and which I can't really afford to install either. I think now that I should be on a "normal" tariff, not the Economy 7 one, and my supplier has asked me to take meter readings every day for a week to see what proportion of electricity I use in the day and at night. I'm doing that, but as far as I can see, of course I will use more in the daytime if I have the heating on, so I don't see the point.

I feel utterly defeated with this problem and am even thinking of moving house to get into the land of gas again! Any comments/ideas of where I go now on this matter will be gratefully received!

Errata

Keep taking the readings, your supplier needs hard evidence to move you off E7 onto an ordinary tariff and may be able to do this very quickly. Stress that you're a pensioner on low income to encourage them to act asap and talk to the HA about why it was set up this way and what they can do to help you.

Poosmate

Hi Flib, I'm on Economy 7 even though I don't have night storage heaters or even electric heating (except for 2 small oil filled radiators I bought last winter).

I try to make use of the cheap electric overnight by doing my washing (I set it up and put it on a timer to come on about 3am), well I used to! I kind of got out of the habit of doing that - naughty me!!

Do your 4 dimplex heaters have a plug each? I was thinking you could maybe put them on timers and run them overnight (not all for all 7 hours) maybe the one in the lounge for 3-4 hours from say 3am to 7am, bedroom for an hour before you get up so it's nice and warm for you getting up.

Basically, heat the rooms you use more over night on the Economy 7 and those you don't use so much with less heat. with your house being relatively new I would imagine it should be quite well insulated so the heat should remain in the house for a while, then all you need to do is top it up later in the day (if you need to).

Anything you can do overnight, do it on timers, heating, washing, heating water, cook meals in slow cookers (hmm the only thing I like about winter is casserole/stew dinners... mmmm...).

I'm planning on running my rads overnight on timers this winter and turning off my gas fire. I must try to work out if it will be cheaper! And I really must start doing my washing overnight again too!

Hope that helps some,

Poo

Cardew

It is totally your choice if you want to move from Economy 7 to a normal tariff.

If you don't have storage heaters, then you almost certainly shouldn't be on E7.

Flibertigibit

Some good thoughts there Poo, but I am a late riser, so having heating on from say 3am-7am wouldn't really help me. And I did chuckle at first at the idea of putting my slow cooker on during the cheap rates and waking up to a delicious beef stew for breakfast, but thinking about it, I could do that, then divide it into portions for rapid heating in the microwave. How come you're on Economy 7? What I was told was that if you don't use at least 40% of your electricity in the cheap time (usually 1.00am - 7.00amish) you shouldn't be on the tariff because (and this is the vitally important thing I didn't know until recently) you pay more for daytime electricity on Economy 7 than you do on a normal tariff!

My Dimplex heaters are on a programmer and are set as two "zones" - one is the hall and lounge and the other the bedrooms, so I can set these differently - haven't done so far but might consider it, especially re the bedrooms, though the little one is also my computer room and I'm in here a lot. Other than that though, they have thermostatic controls I can put up or down quite easily as I want to. I have considered those calor gas heaters as at least you pay as you use, but everyone says they throw a lot of moisture into the air.

I think ultimately I might be forced to go the storage heater route, and have been doing a lot of home work on that - wouldn't be my first choice, but needs must........

Here's hoping it's not as cold as last winter!

Flibertigibit

Hi Cardew - great to see you on my thread as I am a big fan of yours from all the storage heater threads I've been studying, where you are the voice of reason and common sense! Now how many times have you had to repeat that it doesn't matter what kind of heater you use, you will still only get the same amount, costing the same, so you might as well go for a cheapo one? Well, I've got the message!

Cardew wrote: »

It is totally your choice if you want to move from Economy 7 to a normal tariff. If you don't have storage heaters, then you almost certainly shouldn't be on E7.

Cardew

Flibertigibit wrote: »

I think ultimately I might be forced to go the storage heater route, and have been doing a lot of home work on that - wouldn't be my first choice, but needs must........

Here's hoping it's not as cold as last winter!

I would firstly carry out an appraisal of the running costs with your present set up on a normal tariff.

Then try to estimate costs using storage heaters on E7 assuming, say 50%, 60% and 70% of total electricity was at cheap rate.

This is quite easy to do using a comparison network.

As you are aware there are considerable disadvantages with storage heaters, probably the worst feature being they leak heat during the day, and you need to anticipate the heating requirement for the next day.

Apart from the cost of Storage heaters, there is the cost of installation with new electric wiring required.

Unless Storage heating shows a clear cost saving I would stick with the flexible system you have in the property.

Premier_2

Flibertigibit wrote: »

... However, I have only just discovered that the whole situation is actually worse than I realised because daytime rates if you are on Economy 7 are even higher than a "normal tariff"...

Don't worry too much about it; it's always been like this.

There's currently a bit of hysteria on here against E7, but I don't think it's entirely founded.

Prices will vary by tariff, but typically E7 is about 10% more expensive during the daytime but w whopping 50%-70% cheaper during the low rate.

Break even point is typically about 20-25% low rate usage ... but it can vary. I've seen it below 0% (i.e. it will always be cheaper on E7 even with zero night time usage) to possibly as high as about 45%

7/24 is about 29%

We've gas central heating, but also have E7. We've had it for many many years, and had various electrical suppliers/tariffs. We've never really lost much on E7 ... and are currently gaining by having it

As for your choice of electrical heating, it will be more expensive to heat using daytime electricity than low rate. 10% possible premium is insignificant when low rate is 50-70% cheaper!!! Storage heaters were designed to take advantage of the low rate electricity offered.

JimmyTheWig

Flibertigibit wrote: »

you pay more for daytime electricity on Economy 7 than you do on a normal tariff!

This is so they can afford to charge you a cheaper rate during the night...

davidgmmafan

As in another thread where 7 day readings were suggested I cannot understand why they are doing this. If the property has been there three or four years then they should be able to tell from the records what the percentage usage is. They can just add the totals for consumption together and apply the standard rates to see if there would be a saving.

In my experience staff only advise seven days worth of meter readings when they are not quite sure what to do. I cannot see how your 7 days worth of readings will be more accurate ther 3-4 years consumption history!

I am not sure there is a right to affordable heating, however I would advise asking your supplier if they have a social tariff and if you would eligible as these can be significantly cheaper than the standard rates.

One last thing to check some areas have obscure tariffs with a heat boost on the afternoon. This is unlikely to be the case in a propeorty built recently, however its worth eliminating. Are you certain there are only two readings?

Flibertigibit

Thanks everybody for your input. After several cold days, where I've sat in a sleeping bag or even gone out to see friends with beautiful gas central heating, I have decided I am a wimp and want heating I can afford to use! I don't know what anyone knows/thinks of this quote, but I have more or less decided to go for one which will give me 5 Creda Sensor Plus storage heaters (including one in the bathroom which is currently unheated) installed for £1,650. It seems a reasonable price given the amount of wiring work necessary, and is certainly cheaper than having GCH put in, even if that were an option.

davidggman - re your point on my previous readings - to be fair I have only been with Atlantic for a year, and they completely messed up last winter's readings by transposing the day and night rates. That has been sorted and luckily they admitted it was their fault and let me off £300, so I'm ok with it, and now it is sorted, you are right, they could use the correct readings to compare day and night usage. In fact, though I suppose they have to base it on actual numbers, even ordinary common sense tells me that if I'm heating a whole flat, cooking etc. on the day rate, it's going to be a lot more units than an hour and a half of the immersion every night, plus the occasional wash.

I know I'm not eligible for social tariffs unfortunately and the Economy 10 (where you get cheap 7 hrs overnight, plus an extra 3 in the afternoon to "top-up") is quite difficult to find and hedged around with conditions - but I shall look into it a bit more as it does sound good.

I suppose when it came down to it, I had four choices - have as much heat as I need and go bankrupt, use the heat very sparingly and have an uncomfortable, cold winter, move house (thought seriously about this, but I really like my flat in every other way, and moving costs would come to more than £1,650, not to mention all the hassle) and finally the one I've gone for - bite the bullet and have the best and most affordable electrical heating installed. Will seriously deplete the savings, but might, in the long run, enable me to save a bit more!