former landlord trying to stuff me with someone elses electricity bill!

Stone_Fox

Up until march I was renting a flat from a really dodgy character. I had no tenancy agreement and wasn't registered there in any way, all bills were included. I also recently found out that while I was staying there he had one of his little cronies claiming housing benefit there.
I moved out following a dispute about an illegal rent increase and he started hassling me saying I owed him money. The short answer was effectively 'go f**k yourself'

Months later and Npower have got in touch saying I owe an £807 electricity bill! I've rung them saying I didn't live there and they didn't believe me. I printed a letter I found on here demanding to see the credit agreement and they said that a tenancy agreement signed by me, thelandlord and a 3rd party witness!

Obviously the tenancy agreement is fake, although he's had stuff with my signature on beforeso he could have had it faked so it does look like my signature!

I don't know what to do, please advise guys!

Cardew

NPower's only concern is to get the money they are owed.

If you used electricity during the time when you were 'renting' the flat, and in the absence of anything to say that the Landlord was responsible for electricity costs, you owe them the money.

It doesn't seem relevant if the tenancy agreement exists or is forged - the occupant of the property who used the electricity is liable. Even if you go to court and get a ruling it was forged, as long as you acknowledge you lived in the property it is your debt.

If you want to maintain the pretence, with the electricity company, you didn't live at the property, then you take your chance in court if NPower take it that far.

P.S.
If you had no tenancy agreement, how can it be an 'illegal rent rise'?

undaunted

There's probably a lesson for you here - don't rent a house from a "dodgy character" or leave yourself unregistered anywhere (makes you look dodgy too!)

As there appears to be no other proof you ever lived there I think whether the "tenancy agreement" can be proved forged or not is important personally as without proof you lived there Npower would have more chance of pursuing the landlord than you via the Courts.

You may also like to consider what else your landlord has been upto. If the housing benefits claim was dodgy & he's running tenancies without the required agreements (possibly implying a tax fiddle?) he isn't going to want you opening up this can of worms as it could prove more trouble for him than paying the bill is worth. It may therefore possibly be worth "inviting him to think things over & reconsider his position here!"

Pincher

So the landlord rented the flat out TWICE!

Try to prove the housing benefit claimant was "living" at the address, send the proof to Npower, so they will pursue that person instead.

If the landlord claims your "witnessed" agreement was the genuine article, then he is admitting he has committed benefit fraud, and the council will claw back the benefit paid, and potentially prosecute him.

If the landlord claims the housing benefit rental is genuine, then the claimant was the official resident, and therefore liable for the utility bills.

I would love to hear how he explains BOTH rental agreements are genuine.

There is also the cash in hand rent issue. If your rental agreement was genuine, then he has to confess how much he has received, unless he wants to claim you didn't pay ANY rent, including the deposit.

Premier_2

Stone_Fox wrote: »

... I've rung them saying I didn't live there and they didn't believe me....

Nor do we, you have already admitted to living there!

Stone_Fox wrote: »

... Obviously the tenancy agreement is fake, although he's had stuff with my signature on beforeso he could have had it faked so it does look like my signature!

I don't know what to do, please advise guys!

If you are suggesting the 'faked' tenancy agreement goes beyond the period you actually were a tenant there, then showing your new tenancy agreement for the property you moved into would be good circumstancial evidence.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2745922

Whilst there may be a short period of overlap, it would be unusual to have two tenancy agreements on the go for a prolonged period.

You don't seem to have much luck do you...:cool:

davidgmmafan

As far as NPower are concerned this is a third party dispute, its between you and the (seemingly dodgy) landlord. You could make some trouble for him as others ahve outlined (wonder if he's declaring the income from the rent), however whether or not he's violent could have some bearing on your decision.

The main problem I see if you have nothing to fear physically is that, without a tenancy agreement, you have nothing to prove that the bills WERE included. This is exactly the sort of info that would be covered in a tenancy agreement.

Not sure if there is a legal need to have a tenancy agreement when renting? The people on the buying, selling and renting board may have a better idea. I imagine many people are renting from friends and acquaintences, but not sure if there's anything legally wrong with it or not.

Above all learn from this, I know its bad to assume the worst, but at least if you do and something goes wrong you are prepared for it

"always borrow from a pessimist, they won't expect the money back"

MR_ANGRY_2-2

Hi Stonefox.

As no written agreement was in place only a verbal one - that is still a contract and is legally binding by the fact you were living there.

Now the fun bit .......

The landlord - was it Peter Rackman ?? I think I am way older than you, so Google that name.... by not registering the property for all the relevant taxes on the rental fee was commiting a fraud against the Inland Revenue.

By not registering the deposit (if you paid one) is also illegal.

By filling in, or signing, a benefit form to allow his cronie to access benefits from that address is a criminal offence and you will see all over the news at the moment, the Revenues and Benefits people are getting very tough on people like him. They can trace where the payment was made - ie whose bank.

His cronie is commiting benefit fraud as he stated he lived in a property when he didn't. He also received benefits by using that address and that could run into quite a few thousand.

If the property had a gas appliance - he should have produced a Gas Safety Certificate and gave you a copy of it - to which you are legally entitled. If he didn't, then that is a jailable offence.

Advice ? .... I would WRITE to the landlord stating that you are disputing any bills are outstanding as the agreement was that the bills were included.

State that the tenancy agreement is a forgery.

State you have made an appointment with the benefits section of the housing authority and you are going to sort out the dates of your tenancy with them. The housing people won't discuss anything with you about another persons claim, but you will have 'lit the blue touch paper' by saying this.

Go to the housing authority ......

State you are going to the Police as you believe there has been a case of obtaining money by deception - that what it is called and you have been made to be an accomplice unwittingly.

And go to the POLICE ....

Or see a solicitor - pronto !

You really don't know what the man has done in your name, if he is willing to go so close to the wind for an energy bill - your name may have been used in obtaining credit etc etc - contact Equifax.

As some of the replies have stated - if you do it the correct way in a calm manner, involving the right people - you will get the right result !

Good Luck !!!

P.S. Ask the energy supplier to be patient as it is now in the hands of your lawyers - and copy them into all paperwork - this may seem like 'overkill' but at least you are showing that you are addressing the problem

Terrylw1

You need to take this forward in terms of a fraud.

If Npower get a legal document showing you lived there, they will charge you.

This one is tricky one for a Supplier. They can only legally bill who wons the property or who they can prove had a tenancy. They won't normally change names out of the landlords name without a tenancy agreement due to these issues.

So, you have to get the tenancy agreement accepted as illegal. From that point on, Npower's take will be to make the landlord liable and make him prove otherwise. Thats easier for them since he is a static party, whereas they could spend ages tracing where you are.

From a legal point of view, Cardew is spot on. However, Suppliers won't want to go that far with it and if the tenancy doc is proved fake, they will assume the landlords responsibility until they can otherwise.

From the courts point of view, they would probably split the bill, because they have the power to make that decision. You should be paying, but energy companies need proper proof. Their debt agencies have more resources to find that out.

Cardew

Terrylw1 wrote: »

From a legal point of view, Cardew is spot on. However, Suppliers won't want to go that far with it and if the tenancy doc is proved fake, they will assume the landlords responsibility until they can otherwise.

The crucial issue is proven or claimed to be fake.

If the Supplier has sight of a signed tenancy agreement, which the named tenant claims is forged, IMO I suspect that they will bill the named tenant.

To do otherwise would be accepting the tenant's word that the landlord had committed a criminal offence!

Terrylw1

Cardew wrote: »

The crucial issue is proven or claimed to be fake.

If the Supplier has sight of a signed tenancy agreement, which the named tenant claims is forged, IMO I suspect that they will bill the named tenant.

To do otherwise would be accepting the tenant's word that the landlord had committed a criminal offence!

Totally agree. They will.

If it's proved to be fake though, they will push ownership onto the landlord and make it his problem to either get them more proof or take it further himself and pay them off.

Supplier's will check more than the tenancy agreement, especially if they pass the debt to an agency. They may see other bills payed by a tenant which only reinforces the tenancy.

If the guy has been there, he should pay it all or some if shared anyway.

Radsteral

i had a proper contract last year 750 all included for 12 months
as soon as i moved, thames water was on my tail ...12 months in a row.. red headed papers for court and bailifs..
i always sent them copy of my tenancy agfreement

lewisham council was too on my tail...same story with them.
landlord, tried to have an easy ride and wasnt replying to my emails or supliers emails...
i was about to buy house then and faced with the prospect of blacklisted and bad credit i decided to act .
Paid council tax from credit card, paid thames water fully and cancelled direct debit with my landlord .
Sent a letter to landlord that he owes me money as i was paying his bills even though i never signed agreement with thames water etc
he came back screaming but next month i didnt pay either and invited him to go to court.
i then realised the studio flat i was renting had no permition to be built and called lewisham council who came and listed my flat as flat 1a, instead of flat nr 1 me and landlord had.
basically i was named as the tenant for the whole house! thats why bills were coming on my name
to top it up , the landlord was on some sort of benefits and when a letter adresed to him came in, i managed to be first at home , opened up and there was a form from council to fill,
i didnt wait a second and filled everything to make it worse for him.
5 days latter more letters came, and in evening my landlord came in evening paid the rest of money cash and asked for ''peace''
the last 2 months i decided not to pay a peny and i didnt! not a word from him...got my revenge for all the harrasement from lewisham council and thames water