B&Q Wind Turbines (Merged Thread)

Cardew

freddix wrote:

Please excuse me but I am new to the moneysaving thread and this is my first post. I have followed the microgeneration development with interest and have just sent this to Windsave.

The below was sent to Windsave on the 18th October.

Welcome to the forum - great letter.

I hope you get somewhere with your 'complaint'. My fear is that their advertising blurb is sufficiently vague to cover themselves against misrepresentation claims – full of terms like ‘up to’

The payback times also make no reference to the cost of borrowing the capital, or as you say future servicing.

I am disappointed that a firm like B&Q have lent their name to a product that will be a huge ‘white elephant’ for the majority.

gromituk

No worse than lots of the other white elephants they sell, like air conditioners for conservatories!

Cardew

Noutram wrote:

One of the issues is the payback or ROI of alternatives –until energy is painfully expensive or scale effects bring costs down this will always be a long period. Let’s hope we are not caught in an energy crunch with spiralling raw materials and replacement costs as described here: http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Incidentally I have designed my own solar heating system that should cost about £250 to make and am building a proof of concept prototype. Assuming I spend £100 / year on hot water that's a ROI of 2.5 years. OK, you need to do a bit of DIY but I am a computer person not a timber man / plumber and so I designed it for simplicity of build / installation. These things are not rocket science.


Nick.

Welcome to the forum.

I do not believe your figures add up.

Firstly if you spend £100 a year on hot water, you will be very lucky if you get 50% of that from solar.

Even if you can build a system for £250 there is the cost of installation. The average punter is not going to clamber around on his roof installing panels and plumbing.

Lastly it is too simplistic to just take the cost of a system and divide it by projected savings to calculate the payback time.

[Deleted User]

This is the reply I received

Dear Mr XXXXX

Many thanks for your email and interest in Windsave.

I have forwarded your email onto our Directors for comment, which you should receive shortly. As I am sure you can appreciate we are launching our product into the UK market and would appreciate your patience if there is any delay in this response being received.

Yours sincerely

XXXX XXXXXX

I followed this up with

Dear Ms XXXXXX,

Thank you for your email.

I am sure your company is busy at the moment attempting to promote its products.

As raised in my email below, I would very much like microgeneration to succeed and am pleased that companies such as Windsave are bringing products to market.

However I have as of yet not received a substantive response to my queries below. If much more time passes without a proper response I will have to assume that Windsave's advertising is misleading and will take my concerns to the ASA and B&Q.

Yours sincerely

I will give them until the end of the week.

As Cardew pointed out it is unlikely that if I go to the ASA that much will happen although we might at least get Windsave to change there marketing blurb or perhaps even get B&Q to get Windsave to change it. B&Q have an environmental policy which states they promote and sell environmental products. This is an extract from their site

"As one of the leading UK retailers, B&Q recognises that its commitment to the environment extends beyond merely products. Ian Cheshire, Chief Executive of B&Q, is a member of the Corporate Leaders Group on Climate Change which brings together major business leaders to lobby Government on the need to develop new and longer-term policies for tackling climate change. Business and Government must make it even easier to reduce environmental impact, whether that means educating consumers or offering more solutions. Retailers need to pioneer the field and help to generate customer interest in products that benefit the environment. B&Q feels that Government could be using its influence at the European level to remove tax and legislative barriers, and remove the VAT on products recommended by the Energy Saving Trust"

The statement that they need to "help generate customer interest in products that benefit the environment" is important. My issue with the whole Windsave product and its current marketing is that they could kill this very important market by dissapointing initial customers and receiving bad feedback. Which in turn will put other people off.

The problem for the manufacturers is that at the moment there product is only produced on a batch production basis making overall costs high. If they can generate enough demand to go "mass production" then costs will fall. But of course this is all chicken and the egg because for the time being the only people likely to buy this type of product at this price are the "environmental lobby" types. However over time prices should fall.

But they need to get real with their marketing and get rid of the spin (if you pardon the pun).

I really would like to see Windsave and the other microgenarators manufactures like Swift and Stealth Gen and others succeed with their products, but not at the expense of fleecing the public at the outset.

I have three children and I want them to be able to enjoy the world as we have enjoyed it and not spend the rest of their lives living in misery caused by climate change.

Andy_Spoo_2

I got this reply from an email I sent to B&Q. Might be of interest to some of you:-

Thank you for your e-mail.

I can provide you with more information than the leaflets, so here goes:-

Installation is included in the cost of the turbine.

Grants are at the discretion of the Council so you may be able to obtain a reduction on the price we are charging. Please view https://www.lowcarbonbuildings.org.uk/info/ianm/acc.

There is some information on the Windserve website, which has a downloadable plan which can be used for planning permission as well as a question and answer page. Windsave Wind turbine <http://www.windsave.com&gt;

Firstly we would advise that your local council is contacted, in order to obtain planning permission and the grant. You can then place the order and the pre-installation survey will be arranged with you. If, for any reason, you can not proceed, a full refund will be provided.

Our installers, Mark One, are accredited and can provide you with paperwork for the Council if needed. Tel 0800616302

I hope this helps you but let me know if you require further information.

Regards

Katrina Boyce
Social Responsibility and
Senior Customer Services Advisor

Andy_Spoo_2

Those people that say they know of cheaper alternatives, tell me where from.

Many a time I've seen people saying that they can get cheaper goods from other countries and places (the £800 turbine sounds intersting), but no-one ever gives any specific information.

And I don't want to build my own. They just look tacky and I don't have the time.

Andy

gromituk

How much will planning permission cost? Standard charge from my council is £350!

[Deleted User]

So I didn't get a response from Windsave and good to my word I emailed the B&Q CEO with the below

Dear Mr Cheshire,

I am writing to you to voice my concern (which is shared by many others, please see the attached links http://www.wind-works.org/articles/RoofTopOvertheTopinBritain.html , http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3112 , http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2377 , http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3017&highlight=wind , http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=273400&highlight=windsave , http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1587&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 , http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=173959) over a particular product that B&Q have recently started selling.

The Windsave WS1000PS T2 is a small micro generation wind turbine which you are currently retailing for £1495.
My concern lies with the promotional and in store point of sale material that is being used to market this product.
The marketing material is misleading in its promotion of this product and potentially could damage the entire micro generation market (which I fully support) if nothing is done.
What are my concerns
1) The in store video promoting this product states that home owners who install the product can save £200 per year or approximately 30% of their electricity costs per annum.

These figures are misleading and Windsave has, despite me corresponding with them been unable to demonstrate that they are accurate. Please see my attached email correspondence.
I do not doubt that in precisely the right location that the Windsave product could potentially generate 30% of an average households electricity but their/your in store marketing material attempts to infer that most households would be able to achieve this figure with little or no problem at all.
In terms of making savings of £200 per annum, even with 30% of average household electricity (i.e 1100kWH) being produced by the Windsave turbine per annum this equates to a saving of approximately £94. Windsave is manipulating the notion of a ROC payment to bolster this £94 figure, but as yet has not answered my questions (see attached emails) on what true value a single ROC will add to its figures, especially when you take into account administrative charges etc.
Given that its claims for 30% per annum electricity production and/or £200 per annum savings are not even remotely realistic for the majority of potential customers for this product, then the purported 5-7 year payback period for this product is also misleading.
I am aware that Windsave carries out a survey to test for suitability, but I am sure that once the product has been purchased from yourselves Windsave are unlikely in the majority of cases to tell the purchaser what the realistic output, returns and payback periods are likely to be. It would be too much of a conflict of interest for them.
I do not wish B&Q to stop selling the Windsave product. I am entirely pro micro generation and all forms of renewable energy. I am also pleased that companies such as Windsave have persevered with their product development. However misleading marketing material will result in disappointed and dissatisfied customers, who will in turn, put people off from buying this type of product in the future, rather than encouraging others to follow their lead. This could potentially damage the entire micro generation market for years (which in turn will effect B&Q directly as it will loose a potentially long term valuable retail product).
Your website states the following
"B&Q has a long history of innovation and leadership in the field of social responsibility and has been recognised for its achievements in this area. It works hard to ensure that its stores, practices and products have the lowest possible effect on the environment, is committed to ethical sourcing of products, and raising awareness among customers of the benefits of using products with a lower environmental impact through the sale of sustainable products."
I do not believe that selling this product with its current misleading marketing and promotional material is socially responsible and does not provide an accurately stated benefit to your customers.
I would like you to withdraw the current marketing material from your stores and request that your supplier Windsave provides you with more accurate and realistic marketing material.
Should you feel that B&Q are not able to respond satisfactorily to my request then I will look to take this matter to both Trading Standards, BBC Watchdog (who did a very nice piece on Solar Energy Products recently) and some of the national newspapers, who as I know you are aware, are taking a great deal of interest in anything to do with matters on climate change, energy and the planet.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely

Mr XXXXXXXX

[Deleted User]

Having cc. Windsave into my email to B&Q I got a proper reply the same day!

I subsequently called the person who emailed me and we had a lengthy chat. He is a consultant to Windsave who has a commercial interest in their company.

He stated that he had just suggested last week that they look to be a bit more realistic with their marketing material and had suggested they post some different site scenarios on their web site. Anyway below is the email response.

The critical part is on the ROC side. It doesn't look as if anybody generating on a micro generation level is likely to see a payment in a ROC format for the time being. This will have a big impact on anticpated capital savings and payback periods.

---

Mr XXXXXXX
Hello, my name is XXXXXX XXXXXXX and I am a consultant to Windsave. The Financial Director at Windsave has asked me to dedicate some of my time to answering your questions. I have copied in the text of some of your emails and will try and reply as concisely as possible to each point raised.

>>You state that the price of 8.67p per kW excludes VAT. This figure is inclusive of VAT.
Your price is from 2005 as I'm sure you are aware all domestic prices rose by between 20-35% for domestic users at the end of 2005/beginning of 2006. For the purposes of Payback Windsave currently uses a cost of 10p per kWh. Precisely because this figure is subject to fluctuation and debate, almost all our figures are quoted in terms of kWh and NOT money.

>>The first part of any domestic electricity bill is normally charged at a higher rate for the first 900 kWH of electricity that is used. This can be as high as 14
>>pence but the rest of the bill is then charged at a lower rate, which can be as little as 5-6 pence per kWH.
Please tell me where I can buy electricity at these prices, currently quoted figures for my postcode are (lowest quoted) 14 p high rate and 8.8p low rate, highest quoted are 19.996p and 10.88p respectively.

>>Your response about the ROC payment seems particularly vague. It does not say anywhere in your literature that you will manage the ROC application for any purchaser of your
>>turbine. I have asked you what the real return from ROC payments will be. You must have experience of this and know this figure.

Despite reassurances that ROC legislation would be in place in time for Windsave's Launch this has not happened and now may be delayed as far as 2008. Our original literature made references to ROCs and was vague as the legislation was not yet in place. Our new literature doesn't mention ROCs and while we continue to lobby for a fast change in the legislation, the claiming of ROCs is currently not possible.

When ROC claiming is possible it is Windsave's intent to either manage this for the customer or rebate the price of the original sale.
>>Why do you not put on your literature that in order to be eligible for the Low Carbons Buildings programme grant you need to have 270mm loft insulation
>>installed, energy saving light bulbs in every single lighting appliance in your house and cavity wall insulation.
Because this is not the case. The LCBP does require you to have a reasonable approach to energy before giving a grant to subsidise micro-generation. Steps include checking your loft insulation, filling cavity walls if you have them and fitting energy saving bulbs where practical. This is hardly onerous to a consumer trying to reduce their energy costs.

>>Lastly you state that you do not anticipate the need to replace any components during the turbines life. You do however only offer a 2 year warranty ( I can
>>understand that there might be areas were the turbine would have a significantly shorter life span, i.e exposed to salty air conditions) but in the main to offer
>>only a 2 year warranty but state that you don't expect any failures during 10 years appears contradictory.
I am sorry you feel this is contradictory, however every industry offers a warranty significantly below the expected life span, why would micro-generation be different? Assuming typical conditions most product failures occur on the "bath-tub" curve, i.e. within the settling period which Windsave has generously estimated at 2 years or after the design life. As with all markets warranties are frequently customer demand driven. In the unlikely event that a competitor offers a warranty greater than 2 years Windsave will review it's position, but at the current time most manufacturers offer a 12 month warranty, Windsave is actually already offering more.

>>You also say an annual visual health check should be carried out. How does somebody do this and what is the domestic user supposed to be checking for. I
>>have an extension ladder which is 8m long, but that still leaves me some 2 metres short of being able to see the turbine

The Visual health check is a recommendation based on site specific conditions. For example annual inspection of the fixing bolts surrounding brickworks and the paint finish on exposed metalwork looking for rust damage. If access is not easily achieved by ladder a pair of binoculars would suffice, once properly installed the system checks are only for un-foreseen defects and occurences.

>>I have both a private and commercial interest in micro wind generation and wanted some more details from you on how you calculate your pay back figures
>>and the general tone of your marketing material.
Do you care to declare your commercial interest? We would welcome the chance to review your literature on micro-generation and payback to see how you believe it should be done.

>>However if I do not receive a response or I receive a response that is lacking in sufficient detail I will be looking to take my concerns to the advertising
>>standards authority and B&Q.
I am sorry you have felt as though Windsave's responses have been tardy or insufficient. Please accept our apology and while it is not an excuse we would defend ourselves by saying that response to our product launch has simply been overwhelming, and we are trying hard to answer hundreds of queries a day.

I would appreciate any responses as "reply to all" this keeps the relevant people at Windsave abreast of your questions and answers so that we can if necessary update our Website FAQs and literature in response to your concerns. Please email me with any further issues.

[Deleted User]

And if anbody is still interested in my inane ramblings this is my reply - its only polite as he took the time to write and speak to me.

I wait to see if I get a response from the CEO at B&Q.

Hope all of this has been of use to somebody.

regards

Freddix

Dear Mr XXXXXX,

Thank you for your email and for taking the time to talk to me on the phone yesterday evening.

Your email has answered most of the questions that I raised, but also highlights one glaring issue which has a big impact on Windsaves quoted payback figures and the turbines general capital return capabilities. This is the issue of ROC payments.

Windsaves literature and marketing material currently eludes to the fact that the a ROC payment of £60 per annum would be credited to the owner of the installed turbine.

Looking at the fact that an average site (i.e one that would produce about 1100 kWH of electricity) might generate savings of approximately £100 per annum an additional £60 per annum from a ROC payment would make a vast difference to payback and quoted capital returns.

I would like to see the Windsave literature/website/instore promotional material changed to remove the ROC element payment and better reflect the actual payback periods which is going to be at least 10 years.

I think Windsave would stand a much better chance in the market and actually make themselves stand out from the Swifts, Stealths, and other micro turbine manufactures of the world if they got honest with their marketing material and really informed the consumer. To this end putting up some examples of different scenarios, showing a poor site, an average site and a optimum site would give a consumer confidence that the quoted figures are accurate.

At the moment there are probably plenty of potential customers (in terms of your next couple of years anticipated volume of sales) out there who would buy your product for the green ethical angle rather than the financial savings, and would be happy with lower quoted outputs and payback figures and be satisfied with an honest description of the product. Whether these customers are the type that inhabit a B&Q outlet is unlikely.

My commercial interest in your product is that we are receiving a lot of enquiries from both our private and corporate clients on micro generation and it would be nice to be able to point them in the direction of a product that works and actually does what it says it does. At the moment when we have enquiries my responses have been very negative, because of the fact that information provided by manufactures of these types of products is not accurate and I couldn't begin to recommend a product that isn't going to meet a clients expectations.

All in all I am satisfied with the responses that I have received but want to see the matter of capital returns and payback periods honestly represented in your marketing and promotional material. I also want to see Windsave clearly demonstrate in its marketing material what would be required in terms of a site location that would generate its average 30% electricy saving. i.e a site in a rural location, without nearby obstructions such as trees and hedges that are going to cause turbulence (or any other structures) and a site that has xxx wind speed etc. An informed client is a happy client!

Yours sincerely

Mr XXXXXXXX