Self Assessment - UTR

Tarasam

It amazes me the comtempt that is held for HMRC staff, we have 2 accountants on this page alone referring to them as numpties. No wonder there is such contempt for HMRC advisers within the media and the general public when you are referring to staff in such a manner. Believe me I've spoken to many accountants who wouldnt have the knowledge nor common sense to be able to complete an easy Suduko puzzle never mind look after my tax affairs.

Oh and yeah i'm an HMRC numptie too. Thanks.

dori2o

chrismac1 wrote: »

This is drivel. The 64-8 is a manual form, so we all know where that goes - into the 13 week mail queue also known as the Bermuda Triangle of HMRC. Any agent worth his or her salt wants to deal with HMRC electonically as much as humanly possible, so we have undeniable evidence of this for 2 reasons:

1. HMRC will not deny receipt.
2. Our client knows who has acted professionally and who has not.

The 64-8 is only a manual form IF your client is not already registered for SA. If they already have a UTR you can complete the form online assuming YOU (the agent) are registered with HMRC.

64-8's when sint in on paper don't go into the standard post, they go to a specific office at Longbenton to be dealt with by the Central Agents Authority Team, better known a CAAT.

If oyu have been sending them to the processing office for the individual client, that is your problem,as it clearly states the address to send it to on the front of the form.

chrismac1

RTFQ - this whole thread is about how to go about getting the UTR in the first place. hence the words "If they already have a UTR" are totally irrrelevant.

dori2o

Touched a nerve have we.

Pennywise

The problem is getting the UTR, as plainly mentioned above several times. I agree that once you have the UTR, then things are a lot easier. Trouble is that the call centre staff won't even forward the UTR request to the right dept - they take it upon themselves to make the decision that a UTR isn't needed.

I've sent a 64-8 to the local tax office to ask for a UTR, to try to by-pass the call centre, and have, on file, a letter back from them saying a UTR won't be issued as the client didn't meet the SA criteria.

Last time I sent a 64-8 to Longbenton without a UTR, I got a stroppy letter back from them threatening all sorts of penalties because the client hadn't submitted a CWF1 - which of course they hadn't because they weren't self employed! They still didn't include the UTR in their reply.

So, to reiterate yet again in case you havn't got the message - it's getting the damned UTR that's the problem!

dori2o

Pennywise wrote: »

The problem is getting the UTR, as plainly mentioned above several times. I agree that once you have the UTR, then things are a lot easier. Trouble is that the call centre staff won't even forward the UTR request to the right dept - they take it upon themselves to make the decision that a UTR isn't needed.

I've sent a 64-8 to the local tax office to ask for a UTR, to try to by-pass the call centre, and have, on file, a letter back from them saying a UTR won't be issued as the client didn't meet the SA criteria.

Last time I sent a 64-8 to Longbenton without a UTR, I got a stroppy letter back from them threatening all sorts of penalties because the client hadn't submitted a CWF1 - which of course they hadn't because they weren't self employed! They still didn't include the UTR in their reply.

So, to reiterate yet again in case you havn't got the message - it's getting the damned UTR that's the problem!

Then use YOUR dedicated helpline that allows you to Queue jump and ask somebody to request a SA record be set up. It's not rocket science.

And if you want to have a SA record set up when writing in with a 64-8, send a SA1 with it.

Mary_Hartnell

I already have a UTR and normally submit an on-line tax return.

However for the year 09/10 I have received income from the estate of a dead relative currently going through probate.

This temporary new source of income is reported to me on a form R185 and is bank interest and a small amount of dividend.

BUT when I logged into the HMRC SA system the welcome screen seemed to say I was not allowed to self assess on-line because of this income???????

Further details of my situation are here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2729317

SeanF

It is so easy to let the ego take control, to blame others, to let personal experience cloud our judgement, to get carried away, to go off on one, to mount our personal soapbox - sadly, such does not bring the result we may hope for.

That aside, lets take time to pause...

The case in point, that of the Inland Revenue aka HMRC - or Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.

I speak as a professional with over 20 years - and still learning on a daily basis.

In that time I have picked up a few things, which may help to guide the unwary in their dealings with the so called "Tax Man" and "Vat Man" which may I hope provide some pause for thought:-

Time was, we - as a rule - sorted things out over the phone based on mutual respect - now I cannot phone the person named on the letter.

That said, you can ask to speak to a technical officer, though not necessarily rely upon what he or she may advise.

Sadly, even getting a UTR or unique taxpayer reference is not always easy.

Worse still, it is almost impossible to get a response to a letter and if you are talking Tax Credits, don't even go there. When I want to speak to anyone from certain Tax Credits offices, I ask for Spooks or Mi5 Department, and would have more chance reaching them than Tax Credits.

And though self assessment as a term is self explicit, be warned - it is fraught with risks and difficulties for the unwary.

But then I would say that as an accountant! OK Maybe I would, but still, it would be remiss of me to pretend otherwise!

Tax software? I have tried them all from HMRC to free software to xyz, but though it costs a bit, I cannot beat "Tax Assistant" from drummohr.com, recently acquired by the software giant "Iris Software" (for professional accountants). It allows me to prepare unlimited tax returns for sole traders, partnerships and limited companies for an annual fee.

The HMRC software is slow and cumbersome in my humble opinion, but idealy suited to the simple tax return, but the savings may be short lived where an accountant may know a thing or two to save you money far in excess of the cost of their services.

Your choice, you wouldn't use a diy health doctoring system in place of a health check from your local GP or a diy legal software in place of a solicitor, so why in the world would you take on the tax return without an experienced accountant, many of whom will give you a free "screening" and quote you a no obligation price to add an expert touch to your taxation affairs.

To reiterate the advice of others above, should you opt for the diy tax return option, take a record of time, date, person speaking to or better still do as I do - take a recording of the call - just ensure to inform them - as they are wont to do that "this call may be recorded for training purposes" etc etc...

and finally, remember you are speaking to a fellow human being, a real person and that it is easy to be polite and compassionate - and you will achieve better results by being courteous and treating the person on the other side of the phone with respect.

Pennywise

dori2o wrote: »

Then use YOUR dedicated helpline that allows you to Queue jump and ask somebody to request a SA record be set up. It's not rocket science.

That's exactly what I did - that's exactly what they refused to do. The dedicated helpline just queue jumps - it doesn't get a better standard of call centre worker. You are clutching at straws. You never seem to actually address the problem of the OP nor the other posters who have similar problems - you keep going off on a tangent and bringing other points that skirt around the issue. What is the point of trying to be clever by mentioning a special helpline that just jumps the queue - I don't think anyone on this thread has complained about the length of time of waiting to speak to someone - the common thread is that the people they speak to don't do as they are asked!

dori2o wrote: »

And if you want to have a SA record set up when writing in with a 64-8, send a SA1 with it.

Yes, if you bother to actually read the comments, you'll see that I have written to both the local tax office and the CAAT, and both departments wrote back eventually, neither giving me the UTR I'd asked for. CAAT whinged that I hadn't submitted a CWF1 when I'd clearly told them why an SA was being done for other reasons - local tax office point blank refused due to not meeting the criteria.

It took a formal complaint to get the UTR in this latest case which prompted an apology and a refund to the client of my additional fees - all that clearly proves HMRC were wrong.

If you give "advice" to taxpayers on the helplines in the same manner as you make comments on here, i.e. by making up assumptions and not really taking on board what you're being told, then I'm sorry to say you are typically of the type of call centre worker, I, and others, experience on a regular basis.

dori2o wrote: »

It's not rocket science.

Exactly, it isn't rocket science - that's why it's so frustrating when HMRC staff don't know the proper procedure. I do everything by the book - fill in all the forms, write to the right places, phone the right helplines, and still, often 3 months down the line, HMRC havn't done what they should have done. All my latest problems started because HMRC wouldn't issue a P53a form for a pension triviality payment tax refund - that's not rocket science either, but repeated calls by client and myself got varying responses such as "there is no such form" or "because it's only a couple of months away from the tax year end, we can't issue one and you'll have to wait until after 5/4 to submit an R40" and the best was "just download it from the internet" - it's hardly rocket science - the P53a procedure is clearly laid out in HMRC's manuals - it isn't a downloadable form - the manuals clearly state it should be issued upon request, but why, oh why, wouldn't the call centre staff arrange for it to be issued? Result was several months of aggravation trying to get a UTR to do an SA online!

kickwhamstunner

Pennywise wrote: »

I do everything by the book - fill in all the forms, write to the right places, phone the right helplines, and still, often 3 months down the line, HMRC havn't done what they should have done.

If you did everything right like you assert, I doubt there'd have been these problems. This smacks of blaming HMRC for your own shortcomings.