Am i Getting a Good Deal for Business Websie

Savvy_Sue

Just to say to anyone confused by the last four posts: the post in which killakz showed his work in progress has been removed by the forum team.

grantd

For any ecommerce site I would recommend the 'Magento' system. Been doing a lot of research for a furniture website I'm thinking about. There are a lot of people out there who will do it for you...but I'm struggling to find anyone in the North at the minute.

schneckster

Let's see...

Zen Cart or osCommerce open source e-commerce systems - free
Hosting - can get it for under £100 pa including SSL, and 2Gb pcm bandwidth (how many products you putting up?) Is unlimited bandwidth really needed? Unless it's a huge site, usually not!
Logos and banners - use a bit of time with free tools on the net and that's all it would cost you
Google Analytics - do a search on Google on how to use it, but most hosts have their own analytics available for use.
Tradespace Expert - a quick search on Google shows this to be BT. Why bother? It's Google you want to be on. Zen/osCommerce come with SEO facilities so it will help you get higher up the search rankings straight out the box.
Shop Management Training - a cheap local designer can do this, or you can read up on it through Zen's or osCommerce's forums and Wiki's
Payment Processor - if you're just getting started, use Paypal. Again, both Zen and osCommerce have the facilities built in. Free to set up and only a charge per transaction, unlike more sophisticated systems that want a monthly fee plus transaction charge.

You can pay a local web designer under £500 for a full e-commerce solution using Zen, including logos and banners, and frequently a year's hosting.

Personally, the package in the OP seems a lot of money for not a great deal of value.

Schneckster

bazzlad

schneckster wrote: »

Let's see...

Zen Cart or osCommerce open source e-commerce systems - free
Hosting - can get it for under £100 pa including SSL, and 2Gb pcm bandwidth (how many products you putting up?) Is unlimited bandwidth really needed? Unless it's a huge site, usually not!
Logos and banners - use a bit of time with free tools on the net and that's all it would cost you
Google Analytics - do a search on Google on how to use it, but most hosts have their own analytics available for use.
Tradespace Expert - a quick search on Google shows this to be BT. Why bother? It's Google you want to be on. Zen/osCommerce come with SEO facilities so it will help you get higher up the search rankings straight out the box.
Shop Management Training - a cheap local designer can do this, or you can read up on it through Zen's or osCommerce's forums and Wiki's
Payment Processor - if you're just getting started, use Paypal. Again, both Zen and osCommerce have the facilities built in. Free to set up and only a charge per transaction, unlike more sophisticated systems that want a monthly fee plus transaction charge.

You can pay a local web designer under £500 for a full e-commerce solution using Zen, including logos and banners, and frequently a year's hosting.

Personally, the package in the OP seems a lot of money for not a great deal of value.

Schneckster

Reading your advice makes me laugh - would you recommend the same for someone buying a house?

"£120,000 seems a bit much, you can buy bricks for £10,000, windows for £7,000, search google for advice on bricklaying, use a bit of Cardboard for the roof and find a local builder to knock up the rest for a few quid!"

You've broken down the tangibles, but not the all important intangibles.

UI, Aesthetics, Trust, Technology, Customisation.

The Dell Boy approach CAN end up costing more in the long run - if someone wants to dip their toe in the water before jumping in the bath, fair enough, but if they're serious about starting a proper e-commerce business they need (imho) to get proper, professional help.

If a tradesman is judged by his tools (you don't see many plumbers using Pound Land tools) then an online shop is judged by it's build quality.

- Also, to recommend Zen Cart in 2010 is an interesting choice - it's clunky, foul looking, outdated, and the cart doesn't even use ajax.

And it doesn't come with "SEO facilities" as you mention - it's standard URL style is:

ain_page=product_info&cPath=100000020_11947_11967_13214&products_id=10609326

There are decent open source e-commerce solutions out there. Zen Cart isn't one.

As a web designer/developer for 10 years, I think the OP has got himself a decent deal.


@Grantd - Drop me a PM re Magento.

schneckster

BazzLad - I wasn't recommending he did it himself. I was trying to show that the costs the OP provided are more than really necessary. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. My mistake.

As for the comment about houses, you're not buying it ready built, you still need to pay for the builder, so your analogy doesn't really work, does it?

It's clear you don't know Zen or osCommerce too well. Magento may well be better. I don't know, I've never used it. But the things you say these two can't/don't do is incorrect.

Both have modules for search engine friendly URL's. Both can use Ajax, or any other script the servers will run. Both can be made to look or feel any way you like using scripts, HTML, XHTML, and CSS. I agree, out the box, Zen looks horrible (where did they get that green colour?? :eek:), but you don't need 10 years experience to change it. And both are endlessly customisable through the use of modules that an experienced designer would have no trouble installing.

They're both based on HTML, XHTML, CSS, PHP, and mySQL - and some or all of those underpin the majority of sites on the net (like this one ). So, outdated?

Charging the prices the OP has paid guarantees one thing - you pay more. It's the person building the site, not the price you pay. "Proper, professional help" doesn't have to cost the earth to get quality. Ever had your car repaired by a main dealer? Then had to take it back because they didn't do it properly? Are they any more "proper, professional help" than a cheaper, well experienced mechanic?

Deriding something competitive as the "Del Boy approach" is a standard marketing ploy, I guess, if you charge these sorts of prices. But being more expensive doesn't make you better (in my experience, it often makes you worse). And using open source software is not like using "Poundland tools".

After all, isn't Magento open source?

Schneckster

nowaynoway

killakz, at first glance I was going to say no but then I noticed there was quite a bit of training involved for you, in which case I think it's a v good deal as long as you make sure you take up the training.

bazzlad

schneckster wrote: »

As for the comment about houses, you're not buying it ready built, you still need to pay for the builder, so your analogy doesn't really work, does it?

Well that's the point - he IS buying a web site fully built, and you're recommending (or at least showing him the cost per part [and leaving out the important cost - expertise]) he builds it himself (with a touch of hand holding).

So the analogy works perfectly.

schneckster wrote: »

It's clear you don't know Zen or osCommerce too well. Magento may well be better. I don't know, I've never used it. But the things you say these two can't/don't do is incorrect.

It's clear I do. It's clear I've set them up, played with them, used them from an administrative and from an end users perspective.

The last company I worked with used Os for the cart section of their website - by removing that and getting them a bespoke well made cart solution their bounce rate lowered from 50% to 30% and conversions sky rocketed.

schneckster wrote: »

Both have modules for search engine friendly URL's. Both can use Ajax, or any other script the servers will run. Both can be made to look or feel any way you like using scripts, HTML, XHTML, and CSS. I agree, out the box, Zen looks horrible (where did they get that green colour?? :eek:), but you don't need 10 years experience to change it. And both are endlessly customisable through the use of modules that an experienced designer would have no trouble installing.

And this is where the issues start.
Did you know a Rover Metro can do 0-60 in 5 seconds if you take out the engine and put a Porsche engine in. Hell while you're there you can put leather seats in and it'll look nice too.

The fact is it's 2010. You have to bodge around with the code to make it look nice, they don't use smarty tag based templating - ajax doesn't work as standard, the URLs are a disgrace leading to cannonical issues as standard.

You sit there accusing me of not having used Oscommerce and Zen Cart, a charge that's completely false, yet admit yourself you've not used Magento - I ask you, in what world are you in a better position than me to give a recommendation, or even to question mine? I've used all three (and a loads more [cubecart, opencart etc]) as well as working on hand coded bespoke systems, for large companies - your expertise?

schneckster wrote: »

They're both based on HTML, XHTML, CSS, PHP, and mySQL - and some or all of those underpin the majority of sites on the net (like this one ). So, outdated?

Again, you obviously don't understand the term outdated.

XHTML 1.0 Transitional became a web standard in 2001, not exactly a key requisite to being modern.

If you don't understand WHY from a coding perspective Zen and OS are outdated - I'm not going to educate you - you've got a lot to learn. Just understand that OSCommerce have had a beta version of their 3.0 major rewrite available since 2007 - so ask yourself when did they start writing that and WHY?

schneckster wrote: »

Charging the prices the OP has paid guarantees one thing - you pay more. It's the person building the site, not the price you pay. "Proper, professional help" doesn't have to cost the earth to get quality. Ever had your car repaired by a main dealer? Then had to take it back because they didn't do it properly? Are they any more "proper, professional help" than a cheaper, well experienced mechanic?

Again, this is my field of expertise, I'll tell you something for nothing, my company is fairly priced - we sit in the middle, we're not the cheapest, but by no means the most expensive - our pricing is based on experience and talent.

I wouldn't beat the OP's quote. It's as simple as that. He/she has a got a good deal. And as I see, compare, try to beat and make these sorts of quotes on pretty much a daily basis, again, I feel I have the edge in experience here.

schneckster wrote: »

Deriding something competitive as the "Del Boy approach" is a standard marketing ploy, I guess, if you charge these sorts of prices. But being more expensive doesn't make you better (in my experience, it often makes you worse). And using open source software is not like using "Poundland tools".

If you intend on launching an e-commerce website, that you intend to turn into a proper, scalable business (this one was physical iirc toys) -
God help you if you skimp and save without having the expertise. Fail to prepare - prepare to fail.

I've got nothing against opensource, I'm a massive user of linux (desktop and server) love notepad++, 7zip, php and loads, loads more - but as I've always said, and I think you've proven conclusively, those with a little knowledge are the most dangerous people.

Let's break it down, for £1600 the OP gets:

A fully designed, configured, tested e-commerce web site build to his spec.
New branding to match.
Training to understand exactly how to use it/manage it.
Support.
Initial upload of products done.
Terms and conditions, Privacy Policy, Shipping Information and payment provider.
Flash Banner Montage
Google analytics and training on analytics
Tradespace expert set up.

And you reckon that's overpriced? Screw me sideways!
As long as the company are competent he's got himself a fair price there.

Do me a favour? Try a few more of the opensource ecommerce solutions available (much like the CMS situation, none of them are perfect but they all have strengths) before making a recommendation, and you'll quickly see why Zen and OS are so avoided by professionals.

Picking the wrong open source software can cost you money. That's the bottom line.