Tank uplift charges

1woof

Been lurking for a little while on here and have read a lot of the useful info. We are looking to transfer from LPG to oil, as fed up with charges going from 26p to 46p in the 6 years. Did consider changing supplier, but also fed up with contracts and would prefer to shop around for each tank fill as is possible with oil.
Ok so we want to get the tank removed in preparation for oil. Contacted Shell and they are saying:
£280 + VAT tank uplift
£250 to pump remaining gas out (although credit some against remaining gas) - what is this about?
In addition they require written notice - which seems reasonable. We will then receive a questionnaire to fill in and only on receipt of the questionnaire will they arrange tank uplift which can occur between 1 day - 3 months of return!

This seems rather unreasonable - charges and the possibility if having to delay new heating installation at the whim of Shell.

Our position with contract. We signed a 3 year contract to supply in 2004 on moving in. (Gas was 26ppl then and now pay 46ppl) But have not renewed the contract since, although keep paying as per normal. This contract says £250 + vat for tank removal but not this other "gas pumping" charge. ANy advice out there as to how to (i) challenge these charges and (ii) force them to remove the tank within a more reasonable time window?

Thanks in advance, Mark

frankie

Hi Mark

Welcome to the forum. I can empathise with your dilemma re lpg, as will others on this forum. However, have you taken into account the payback costs involved in switching to oil. You need to factor in the installation of a new boiler, an oil tank and piping etc, and the volatility of oil prices. Will this be more or less cost than staying with lpg despite the cost of lpg?

Have you considered getting a decent contract with an lpg supplier (do they exist you may ask!). Some on this forum seem to think that Extrafuels seem to be a good bet as they publish their lpg prices monthly and they let you rent the tank. (no need to uplift).

1woof

Thanks Frankie for your reply. I realise it will take many years to break even on the capital outlay to change lpg to oil - when the cheapest option would be to just upgrade the boiler - in the short term. I would say I am about 90% convinced to change, and the attitude I am encountering is further shifting the balance towards oil and entrenching my views. Oil or LPG - prices of both are volatile (pun intended) but the possibility to shop around when you need to fill seems so attractive rather than being tied into a contract that is essentially what they want to impose. Hence the fees mentioned in my original post that bear no relation to what I signed.

Any other thoughts as to fees they can make up? What about the time scale? I read a government document - competition commission - I think the one that changed the previous practices, and notice there a section saying:

11. Tank uplift
11.1 If the statement of eligibility to switch confirms that the customer is eligible to switch, or the provisions of article 6.4 or 10.3 apply, then:
(a) within 14 calendar days of receiving the notice the existing supplier shall either remove his tank or have reached agreement with the new supplier that the tank will be removed on a specified date and how the tank will be removed on that date;

Taken from ...turns out I can't post links but it can be found on oft website - email me for the link if you wish.

I realise this is in relation to switching suppliers, but it would be reasonable to expect a similar time frame for termination?

Secondly, a fee to pump gas out? It strikes me than an alternative would simply to put the heating on full blast until the tank empties no? I am sure they will still still attempt to charge for emptying an empty cylinder. How about if such a fee is not mentioned on the original contract?

I am now going to get all my statement together as I am also sure they have not kept to the minimum price increases stipulated over the contract period - moving from 26 to 45.5 I think - but off to find out!

Thanks for any input in advance, Mark

HateLPG

Hi Mark, and welcome :-)

Just brief reply for now - I'll probably follow up with a a more comprehensive reply if I feel the need, but it's gone midnight, so I'll keep if short for now (too late, I hear you all cry!) lol

Anyway, this is my 2p-worth in respect of your comments:

Uplift Charge
You say that your contract states £250 + vat, but they are saying £280? Check your contract carefully - they normally have something about that being the price at the time of signatory, but that it can rise year-on-year by an amount not exceeding RPI (or some such waffle!)

Pumping Charge
This is a new one on me - I think they're trying it on as a dis-incentive to migrate. UNLESS you can find something specific in your contract about this, I'd tell them to stick it in their pipe and smoke it! In fact, provided that you're paid up-to-date, I would have thought it's YOUR gas, YOUR property and they will have to buy it BACK from you. Now, an interesting point ocurrs to me here (you'd really want to take legal advice on this, as I'm shooting from the hip), but I suspect that, in Law, as it's YOUR gas, you would have every right to tell them they can pump it out and buy it back, at whatever price suits you - £5.00 per litre sound good?? ;-)

Price?
Where are you? Outer Hebrides or something????
I've just signed a new 2 year contract with Shell (N. Yorks) and they offered me 36ppl with no quibbling. Calor wanted nearly 39ppl, which I still think is outrageous, but unless you're dreadfully remote, I'd say 46ppl is WAY out of whack! It's a pain in the proverbial, I know, but shop around and negotiate. Remember, if you anter into a contract with ANY supplier, they can NOT force you to reamain in contract beyond 2 years, no matter what they may say.

Oil???
YGBSM!
Do you have a reasonable sized garden, or access to a south-facing adjoining field that you could maybe buy a small strip of??
I went through the process of looking into getting rid of LPG a couple of years back. There's really only one (or possibly two) viable alternatives as I see it, and Oil is most definitely NOT one of them. It's a sad fact of life, but ANY Oil derivative or Hydrocarbon-based heating source is just going to go up and up and up over the next few years.
As things currently stand, the next time I look to replace our boiler, it's going to have to be a Ground Source (or possibly Air source at a stretch) Heat Pump. Correctly installed, you can get efficiencies in excess of 100%, believe it or not! There's heaps posted on these forums and elsewhere about these - well worth taking time out to look. The only reasons I didn't go for it 2 years ago were:

1. I needed to replace the boiler pretty much immediately as the old one had more or less packed up;
2. Although the technology itself is pretty well proven, I was unable to find a supplier/installer at the time that I felt had sufficient experience to make sure it was right - 2 years down the line, that should be less of an issue;
3. We have quite a small garden, and I believe that would have made the installation marginal (someone is now going to pop up and say that's not an issue lol). We have hopes to extend the garden in the future, which I believe would then make this a far more viable proposition.

Summary
In your shoes, I wouldn't necessarily be walking away from LPG *just* yet (there are still some tolerable pricing deals out there, but you may have to hunt round), but I would be looking at my boiler and working out an exit strategy to GSHP once the boiier needs replacing anyway!

If you do it that way, and depending on the layout of your house, I would have thought you might even be able to pretty much have both boliers plumbed in (with the new GSHP one isolated but ready to go and the LPG one fully isolatable - your plumber could advise on the viability/safety etc of this). That way, you could just tell your supplier (whoever they may be at the time) that you will require NO further deliveries for the forseeable future, then just isolate and switch over onece the tank is EMPTY! (If memory serves, the contract will preclude you from having another LPG
supplier or parrallel tank etc, but I don't recall having ever read anything about not being allowed to use any OTHER form of heating whilst an LPG tank is in place!)

Finally, gen up on the Competition Commission ruling and read and understand your contract until you can recite it backwards in your sleep while blindfolded, stand up for your rights and make your supplier meet their responsibilities.

Good luck :-)

1woof

Thanks HateLPG for your response. Hope you managed to get some sleep and you didn't end up frothing at the mouth, as LPG suppliers seem to be so good at. I wish I had taken the time to see how much I have been financially abused over the period I have been with Shell.

I have downloaded the competiton committee notes and orders and had a very pleasant read. What next is to send out a notice to terminate and a notice to uplift. At least this will resolve - in writing - what they plan to do.

Contract. Now our contract was signed in 2004, for 3 years. The only other "flirt" with a contract was being sent a supply agreement (which I assume is the contract) at some stage in 2008/9. I say some stage since this has no date on it, nor any signatures from myself or Shell, and no indication when the 2 year exclusivity began. The only mention of any date is on an accompanying "flyer" saying if they receive the agreement by 30th April 2009, then you will be entered into a competiton .... interesting this is around the time when the new regulations came into force. So there are 2 possibilites - either we are not under contract- Or- this undated unsigned contract is 2 year exclusivity from - and to - a time unknown (and this is a breach of the cc notice I believe).

So what does the (new?) contract say. In terms of tank uplift £250 + VAT. "our removal charges will be revised annually - changes effective from Jan 01 each year .....increase linked to RPI....but We will give you at least one months notice of any increase in these charges Since we have received no notification of suceh, then - if we are under contract - these are the only charges that apply.

The comp commission ruling also spells out clearly the timelines for switching, and so I think they will be unreasonable to sugget they will take 3 months to remove the tank as when as the emphasis is on making sure there is minimal interruption to fuel supply. I will dig out the details as I have a feeling I will need to in the future.

I think the next step is to see what they put in writing when I send out the notice to terminate and notice of tank uplift as to how much they want to try it on. GIven the pumping out charge they have already tried, this could end up a long thread - provided you are not all already bored.

Other energy supply. I had vaguely thought about ground heat, but discounted it for a number of silly reasons, but certainly I will consider in the future in looking at solar panels as I believe the technology is moving a pace. This is all another discussion, but it is very much the hurdles the LPG suppliers put into place that really makes me further entrenched that my bulk tank has to go!!!:eek:

LittleVermin

1woof wrote: »

<snip>

this could end up a long thread - provided you are not all already bored.


<snip>

Please give the detail! If people are bored they do not have to read it!

Until/unless we get an official body policing the LPG suppliers this forum seems to be the only way bulk LPG users have to try to get a reasonable deal. And the only way we can get help each other to then get MPs/government convinced that there is a problem - both with pricing and contracts (I use the word loosely!) - that needs to be addressed for all the 150,000 homes using LPG.

We might have hoped that the competition commission order would have sorted out the problem - but obviously it hasn't. [If one user - me - can save £160 on just ONE tankful by switching suppliers - and the tank size is 1000l i.e. bog standard for a 3 bed house - there HAS to still be a problem].

lamplighter2

1woof wrote: »

Thanks Frankie for your reply. I realise it will take many years to break even on the capital outlay to change lpg to oil - when the cheapest option would be to just upgrade the boiler - in the short term. I would say I am about 90% convinced to change, and the attitude I am encountering is further shifting the balance towards oil and entrenching my views. Oil or LPG - prices of both are volatile (pun intended) but the possibility to shop around when you need to fill seems so attractive rather than being tied into a contract that is essentially what they want to impose. Hence the fees mentioned in my original post that bear no relation to what I signed.

Any other thoughts as to fees they can make up? What about the time scale? I read a government document - competition commission - I think the one that changed the previous practices, and notice there a section saying:



Taken from ...turns out I can't post links but it can be found on oft website - email me for the link if you wish.

I realise this is in relation to switching suppliers, but it would be reasonable to expect a similar time frame for termination?

Secondly, a fee to pump gas out? It strikes me than an alternative would simply to put the heating on full blast until the tank empties no? I am sure they will still still attempt to charge for emptying an empty cylinder. How about if such a fee is not mentioned on the original contract?

I am now going to get all my statement together as I am also sure they have not kept to the minimum price increases stipulated over the contract period - moving from 26 to 45.5 I think - but off to find out!

Thanks for any input in advance, Mark

i beleive but stand corrected that they can only increass by 2p a ltrr to raise the price from 26p to 45.5 thats a 100% increas.
as for lpg or oil withthe new law brought out you can switch to whoever you like to get the cheapest price do not just go to the big 4 all about the same price look for a oil supplier in your area he may do lpg. i am paying reluctuntly 36p with flogas, but if you looked around and found a good price do not be suprised if you said to your present supplier i can get it for x they will normally match it, just do not let them sting you with a high standing charge £50 per year for a tank should be the norm, and you can get a years contract.
you can buy the lpg tank off them or buy your own and go to the lowest price.
if you go for oil you have the cost of the tank it has to be double bunded incase of oil spills, you are looking at £900 for a plastic tank, then the cost of the pipework from the tank tothe house plus a boiler and fitting by a engineer who is qualified in fitting oil boilers.
cost for cost the price of 28 sec burning oil to lpg plus all the other costs is it worth changing, just find a cheaper lpg supplier with out a long term contract.