Islmaic Mortage for a non believer?

margaretclare

I pointed, quite justifiably, to the parallel between this and the similar wishful thinking which goes on in the kosher/halal business.

I think that kosher/halal may be a different case. It's not about money in that scenario, it's about cruelty inflicted on sentient creatures by a different kind of killing for reasons which are outside British law. I have talked to someone who used to see this happening in the slaughter-houses that used to exist in the East End.

While I have no doubt that anyone can make any decisions about their money dealings according to whatever ethical scruples they hold, I personally do not go anywhere that there may be a risk of eating ritually-killed meat. If I go to an Indian restaurant (rarely) I eat vegetarian. Even in hospital I choose the vegetarian option because I like to know where my meat comes from (usually sold in the local farmers' market by the producers) and if the catering department can't tell me where their meat comes from then I don't eat it.

I won't get into the idea of 'the absurdity of religion in all its forms'. As a practising Methodist Christian I refuse to be drawn on that one.

Margaret

I_Claudius

LizEstelle wrote:

Er, excuse me but since I have been criticised by name, I feel it necessary to respond.

It is entirely YOUR subjective take on the situation that in some bizarre way I 'feel the need to belittle adherents'.

I repeat that I merely pointed out the fact that so-called 'islamic' mortgages are but a thinly-disguised moneylending, interest-charging situation. One would have to be the kind of 'muslim' who goes in for deliberate self-deception on the grand scale to even consider them.

I pointed, quite justifiably, to the parallel between this and the similar wishful thinking which goes on in the kosher/halal business.

There is nothing surprising about any of this. The kind of self-deception involved is merely a reflection of the greater one which allows a person to give uncritical, irrational belief to the supernatural. Such people 'belittle' themselves, with no need of any help from me... and such is the absurdity of religion in almost all its forms.

Kindly think twice and apply at least SOME degree of objective logic before you next decide to pontificate upon what you think others 'feel'.

if you'd laid out your thoughts in the manner above I wouldn't have felt compelled to respond but you didn't. I objected to the tone rather than the (imo offensively expressed) opinion.

there is a big difference between having no religious beliefs or indeed objecting to peoples beliefs rationally as you did above and calling all muslims / jews (or at least the vast majority who eat halal / kosher diets) 'religious zealots' with 'absurd beliefs' as you did in your initial post. I'd say that was pretty rude and belittles those to whom these religions are very important.

i'm no fan of organised religion myself; however i don't think that this forum is the right place to debate 'the absurdity of all religions'; that was never my intention. I merely wanted to let you know that I thought you expressed yourself in an innapropriate way.

LizEstelle

Claudius, religions ARE absurd belief systems, for the reasons I mentioned in the post above and with which you now appear to agree.

As for 'rudeness', that is distinctly in the eye of the beholder, i.e. it is a subjective matter yet again. Can we assume that you are taking it upon yourself now to act as a one-person, self-appointed 'rudeness monitor' for these fora? Perhaps you'd better let MSE know you've adopted the role so they know to stand aside in good time.

I'm sorry but exactly how many people adopt absurd beliefs is a matter of supreme indifference to me. That does not make the beliefs themselves any more or less absurd. Sheer numbers do not impress me in the way that they seem to affect you.

I reserve my right to call a spade a spade as I see it - and the fact that the zealots may see this as blasphemy (and you give them a half-hearted cheer from the sidelines by seeing it as 'inappropriate') cuts no ice with me whatsoever.

Either deliver yourself of some rigour of deductive logic and debate things with me with clarity or, if you insist on muddled, feelings-beset thinking, go and have a good old chinwag with those of a similar mindset - such as the religionists themselves.

silvercar

.......and all because someone asked a simple mortgage question!

jamesd

LizEstelle, please stop bringing atheists and agnostics into disrepute. This isn't the place. Better to head on over to the recreational parts of the board if you want a religious war.

I_Claudius

infuriatingly i unfortunately feel compelled to reply again and continue dragging this thread down.........

'religions ARE absurd belief systems'. Thats an entirely subjective opinion; putting the word 'are' in CAPS doesn't give your point of view any more validity.

For the 3rd or 4th time: I am not concerned or offended with your beliefs or views on religion, it's the way in which you expressed them. I refuse to believe you are so insular and devoid of empathy that you are unable to imagine that you would cause offence by calling all people with religious beliefs 'zealots' with 'absurd beliefs' (I notice that you have now expanded your sweeping statement beyond just Jews and Muslims).

I presume you must have at least a slight notion that to many people their religious beliefs are central to their lives; why you felt the need to resort to such very emotive language to answer a question regarding a mortgage is beyond me.

Zealot is a very strong word, I assume you know the derivation...... There is a big difference between not eating pork and endorsing murder as the Zealots did.

I'm speaking for myself and 'not as a self-appointed rudeness monitor' btw. I presume I am allowed to do this on this forum and anyway the number of supportive PM's I have recieved on this issue lead me to believe I am not alone.

I will also admit to 'feelings beset thinking' ; I think it's revealing that you refer to that as a negative. Compassion and empathy are probably not very logical but imo pretty essential to behaving in a socially acceptable manner.

As I have repeatedly said I'm not saying your opinion is wrong; I am saying you were over the top in the way in which you expressed it and that it wasn't neccassary in the context of a thread regarding the financial pros and cons of a particular mortgage.

Former_MSE_Natasha

Can we please keep this thread on the original topic and debate the original question. Personal slanging matches are not needed.

Tustastic

maow425 wrote:

I personally would love to have this kind of mortgage, as I am in rented accommodation now, and I feel I'm just throwing money out of the window. With a mortgage like this, my husband and I could actually afford to buy a house but still only pay rent. It would basically be the same as shared ownership, just worded differently in my opinion. The rent we're paying now, would more than cover the "mortgage payments" we'd be paying on an islamic mortgage, and it would be an option to be considered for all those people out there who with today's house prices, cannot afford to get a mortgage, or can't get one for other reasons.

What a useful comment, maow425. Why don't more providers offer this kind of mortgage? It would be a good deal for lots of people. I would suggest giving the products names which are not culture- or religion-specific. There would just be a small symbol (maybe a crescent, maybe not) to show that the product was sharia compliant, in the same way that restaurant menus have a V symbol to show that an item is suitable for vegetarians.

pboae

maow425 wrote:

I personally would love to have this kind of mortgage, as I am in rented accommodation now, and I feel I'm just throwing money out of the window. With a mortgage like this, my husband and I could actually afford to buy a house but still only pay rent. It would basically be the same as shared ownership, just worded differently in my opinion. The rent we're paying now, would more than cover the "mortgage payments" we'd be paying on an islamic mortgage, and it would be an option to be considered for all those people out there who with today's house prices, cannot afford to get a mortgage, or can't get one for other reasons.

I don't understand this, if an Islamic mortgage is just a repayment mortgage rejigged so that is looks like rent, how would it be more affordable than a regular mortgage? Surely the monthly repayments would be the same as for a regular mortgage?

Ian_W

Hopefully now the thread is back on track about mortgages and no longer a slanging/debating society about religion maybe maow425 would like to think about the post above in response to ...

I personally would love to have this kind of mortgage, as I am in rented accommodation now, and I feel I'm just throwing money out of the window. With a mortgage like this, my husband and I could actually afford to

In that case apply for one - as I explained several pages ago - at least as far as LTSB goes it appears no cheaper, nor more expensive than a conventional mortgage. You will need 10% of the purchase price though and your rent will be set in accordance with the LIBOR interest rate. In that respect it is not like conventional shared ownership schemes

The product isn't available just to Muslims, anyone can apply AFAIK [at least according the the mortgage adviser at my local LTSB and my understanding of the law] but I think you'll find it no more affordable.