Water runs out too soon - advice needed...

July1962

You may well be right (I've probably been watching too many tv shows about rogue traders!)

I'll try to locate his number and give him a call tomorrow

July1962

A friend very kindly just went up to the loft for a look.

In his words - there's a little tank, holding water that doesn't look too clean (!) next to a bigger tank which is half full of water.

The big tank has a ballcock. The water is tricking out of a small L-shaped plastic tube high up on one edge of the tank, but it's just a trickle.

He pushed the ballcock down but the trickle didn't get any faster. He pulled the ballcock up and the flow stopped. (It started up again when he let the ballcock drop back down).

He can't see anything which could be turned on/off (there's a lot of pipes covered in foam lagging and the tanks themselves are covered in black plastic padding).

He didn't want to poke about too much in case he caused any damage...

peterbaker

OP, what stopcocks (taps) are you aware of in your airing cupboard?

I am not a plumber but have done some of my own without upset. I agree with peachprice and Cardew, and unlike macman I am not one bit surprised that the bath cold and hot taps slow to a trickle at about the same time. Actually the cold should slow last because real plumbers make the hot feed higher than the cold feed so the hot stops first, if the tank becomes starved, to prevent you being scalded by a sudden hot only sensation around your big toes in the bath! Clearly both hot and cold are fed ultimately by the cold water storage tank in the loft and if the ballcock is faulty or the stopcock tap on the pipe that goes up there has been turned down too low, then the tank is simply not refilling fast enough while you are running the bath and becomes empty before you are ready to turn off the taps.


It is fairly likely that this stopcock in the pipe that feeds the cold water tank is not in the loft but is actually at shoulder height or maybe a bit higher in the airing cupboard on a cold pipe that goes up through the ceiling of the cupboard to the tank. There might actually be two such stopcocks on two pipes headed up there:-
1. For the bigger cold water storage tank which feeds your bathroom taps and the hot water cylinder, and
2. For the small tank with dirty water in it (don't worry too much about the description). That small one is almost certainly the header tank for your central heating radiator system so you can ignore that for the moment if your radiators work ok.

The radiators do get quite mucky inside, but they are not on the same circuit as anything else so don't worry about contamination.

If you are in a hard water area, the ballcock valves in these tanks are prone to become gummed up with calcium and that may cause them to stick a bit and not to open or close properly and for the tanks to overflow in the latter case. That doesn't immediately cause any flood of course, because there should certainl be precautionary overflow pipes on both those tanks safeguarding you from any flood. So any overflow would just waste water and if it drains via a pipe to the outside of the house then you would notice it.

The ballcock valves are inexpensive to replace and in fact can often be dismantled and cleaned in vinegar if you know a handyman. That's what I did with mine when I had almost the same symptoms as you. Mine was caused by hard water over 14 years since new. Now the ballcock allows a good flow to refill my storage tank just as fast as it empties like new.

Yours clearly sounds like it was something minor your plumber did which could be as simple as turning off at least one stopcock while he worked but failing to turn it on again properly before he left.

I understand your reluctance to let the plumber return, but I would at least give him a call and see what he says he thinks it is.

Then before you agree a time for him to return, you can come back here and tell us his telephone analysis, which I think ought to be immediate and simple and probably along the lines of what we have said if he is genuine.

Hows that?

Edit: Something else has occurred to me - the plumber was simply worried about the high level in the tank, and your friend said it was now only half full when the ballcock valve stops it filling any further. I would say that all the pumber did was to adjust the ballcock valve to reduce the level. Nothing more or less. He perhaps did not realise that the speed the tank refilled via the little L shaped tube was so slow and with a half full tank (maximum) would not be enough to run a full bath.

Before he adjusted the ballcock, the tank had probably still been refilling very slowly, but you didn't notice it because there had habitually been a fair bit more in the tank which was just enough to give you a full bath.

Unless you have particularly low mains water pressure which is barely enough to get the water from the road up into your loft, then it may well be that a new or cleaned ballcock valve is all you need. 20 minute job to fit a new one and to check it's working ok. Or if you really want to save the pennies, you could simply ask exactly why the ballcock could not be adjusted back to where it was giving the higher maximum tank level you need for a full bath, and why you can't just rely on the standard overflow system to deal with any future overflows.

After all, there is only one ballcock and one oveflow pipe, and it makes no odds whether the ballcock fails in its present position or in the old position, because the oveflow result will be exactly the same

July1962

Wow - thank you for such a detailed response

I did call the 'plumber' but although he did recall fixing my central heating he denied all knowledge of going into my loft or touching my water flow
He did, however, offer to come and check it out.....for a fee....

My water is hard and there was (apparently) limescale/scum around where the pipes connect to the big tank.

I'll have a look inside the airing cupboard (lots of copper pipes in there!)

Thankyou for reassuring me about the 'dirty water' !!

July1962

In the airing cupboard there's a copper T-shaped 'tap' on a down pipe, approx 6 feet up.

About 4 feet up is a red wheel-type turning thingy (!) with a yellow circle in the middle.
There's 2 more red wheel-type devices (no yellow circle). They are a few inches lower - and on different pipes.

There's a large box thing with electric wired attached, which I assume is a pump, and also a smaller box (which was the thing the chap replaced to fix the central heating).

peterbaker

Annoying that the "pros" should so easily jump to warning of a further fee. You know yourself that you didn;t have the problem until after he told you about the tank level being "too high".

Clearly it isn't too high now as the tank only reaches around half full if your friend is correct, so who adjusted it? Obviously the plumber did. He was probably trying to help, but turns out that because your system is a bit gummed up with calc and slow-filling, he didn't help on that one.

If you don't want to try to persuade him to come back and check it free using this logic, or use him again at all, then I suggest asking around for a local friendly handyman willing to do a bit of tweaking and checking for a cup of tea and a biscuit

It's nothing crucial, just very irritating that you've fixed fix one serious problem (no central heating) but ended up with another little one (a mildly shallow 3/4 full bath - ugh !)

Anyway, Good luck!

PS I can't help much with the taps without tracing them onsite, but I'd say it is likely that the highest T shaped one is the one that feeds the cold water storage tank, especially if the pipe is cold to the touch and it appears to go up into the loft. In that case, I think you might dare check to see if you can move it half a turn (anti-clockwise for further open), but unless it is clearly almost closed, then I doubt you will find it is any part of the problem now. You might even find that it is stuck fast if it hasn't been touched for years. In which case don't force it.

July1962

Thankyou Peterbaker

keystone

Your plumber should have checked the level in the F&E (feed and expansion tank - the small one) which will also have a ballvalve when he replaced the zone valve (which is what your description sounds like) or the pump - whatever it doesn't matter. If he adjusted anything it would be on the F&E tank and he would have had no need to touch the main CWST (cold water storage tank) which feeds the cylinder in the airing cupboard and most likely every other cold tap in the building except the kitchen sink.

The CWST tank feed is your problem and it has nothing to do with the heating as, apart from the primary, the DHW and CH are separate circuits. The valves in the airing cupboard are irrelevant to this discussion UNLESS there is a valve on the rising (15mm) main to the CWST in the airing cupboard rather than it being in the roofspace.

So there are three possibilities. 1) He did interfere with the CWST feed with a view to getting a (chargeable) callback, 2) He's incompetant and played with the feed to the wrong tank or 3) Its just a coincidence. I'm (generously) going to suggest its 3.

Your description of your friend's excursion into the roof last evening 99% says there is something wrong with the ballvalve on the bigger tank. If the ball is set too low then it will shut off the water supply far too early and the tank will never fill. It could be a knackered washer or a blockage due to carp coming up the main in the valve itself. Water company doing any work locally at the time it started? It doesn't sound as though its where the ball itself is set from your description. Whether its a washer issue or carp in the valve its not worth the time and hassle of taking it apart to find out. Just replace the whole thing - it will take 5 - 10 minutes tops and they only cost iro £5 in the sheds. Just make sure you turn off the main stopcock before replacing the valve and open it again afterwards.

Cheers

July1962

Thankyou Keystone - very helpful

keystone

Did you fix it?

Cheers