Agency and Landlord Deny Receiving Notice...

roses

Why did thy arrange viewings then if you hadn't given notice??

tbs624

Ollie - look back earlier in the thread - the OP was not provided with a copy of his/her AST despite requesting one ( twice verbally and once in writing.) That kind of knocks the postal receipt nonsense from the LA into a cocked hat.

It would be the icing on the cake if the OP could find the receipt but given that the OP/T was at a distinct disadvantage, without a copy of the tenancy agreement, how *could* could he actually be expected to comply anyway? AIUI the OP gave the LL 2 months' verbal notice, and apparently extended that for a further 3 week because of the LL's slowness in dealing with it and circumstances can back that up.

mooks

@princeofpounds: Thank you. It's reassuring that you feel a judge will look at the balance of probability - something that's easy to forget when you're dealing with a LL and LA who have no interest in reasonableness or returning my deposit and are simply looking to pocket the £1,400. Of course they're going to tell me I haven't got a case or that they're going to be pursuing me for the money - they're banking on it - literally.

I'm currently trying to confirm the details of my deposit - I have a letter from the LA stating it's held with a DPS, but haven't been provided with any formal certification of this. I'm going to contact the scheme tomorrow to confirm my money's held with them, and will simply lodge a dispute with them if they can confirm that.

If the landlord contests this, then yes, it's off to court I go.

princeofpounds wrote: »

If you can prove your redundancy notice, documents detailing your move, a copy of the letter you sent (even if it's just printed out again), any email correspondance you have that might even hint that you entered into discussions about leaving around the time you should be giving notice, evidence of them marketing the property...

Done and done. I never rely on telephone conversations as evidence of a discussion having taken place, and always write to confirm the points raised - although my experience with the LA suggests that they go out of their way to phone you - ostensibly I'd imagine to make you feel valued as a customer (that personal touch...) but in reality it makes it very hard to evidence the discussion took place. I seriously have letters and e-mails coming out of my ears, but barely anything from the LL or LA.

tbs624 wrote: »

Ollie - look back earlier in the thread - the OP was not provided with a copy of his/her AST despite requesting one ( twice verbally and once in writing.) That kind of knocks the postal receipt nonsense from the LA into a cocked hat.

It would be the icing on the cake if the OP could find the receipt but given that the OP/T was at a distinct disadvantage, without a copy of the tenancy agreement, how *could* could he actually be expected to comply anyway? AIUI the OP gave the LL 2 months' verbal notice, and apparently extended that for a further 3 week because of the LL's slowness in dealing with it and circumstances can back that up.

Thank you for that - I think it's very clear given the information that I have provided both the LL and the LA that my intention to leave was clear, even if the only thing that was missing was the formal letter serving notice. My initial letter to the LL stated that I planned to move out within two months - so it's actually written rather than verbal - but was clear that because I didn't have my AST I didn't know what my obligations were. The LL replied a month later acknowledging my intention to vacate, which of course I have on file, along with other correspondence that shows me trying to make moving out arrangements, but not getting any response.

I appreciate the tough love @olly300. I'd been out of the rental market for around 6 years, so it was easy forget just how devious people can be. If I don't get all of my deposit back, it's the price I deserve to pay for my naivety.

clutton_2

playing devils advocate here.. and using my own experience with both arbitration and court,..... in order for us to be sure if the law is on your side... we need to have dates from the tenancy agreement.. and i know you dont have that.... but.....

when did you sign the agreement and what date do you pay your rent and what date did you give WRITTEN notice from.... these are the important legal facts....

a jude could assume a fixed term start date from the date you pay your rent if s/he accepts that you have no copy of the AST and therefore could not know when to give notice.... other than one calendar months, (less a day) from rent payment day.....

Having said all that.. this agent may well lie and say that he gave you a copy......

suggest you read eagerlearners thread on here re getting a deposit back to learn of some of the difficulties she encountered if your deposit is not lodged with a tenancy deposit scheme....

mooks

Half an hour on the phone to the landlord and I'm exhausted...

clutton wrote: »

playing devils advocate here.. and using my own experience with both arbitration and court,..... in order for us to be sure if the law is on your side... we need to have dates from the tenancy agreement.. and i know you dont have that.... but.....

when did you sign the agreement and what date do you pay your rent and what date did you give WRITTEN notice from.... these are the important legal facts....

a jude could assume a fixed term start date from the date you pay your rent if s/he accepts that you have no copy of the AST and therefore could not know when to give notice.... other than one calendar months, (less a day) from rent payment day.....

Having said all that.. this agent may well lie and say that he gave you a copy......

suggest you read eagerlearners thread on here re getting a deposit back to learn of some of the difficulties she encountered if your deposit is not lodged with a tenancy deposit scheme....

Let's start with the AST...

The agreement started on the 9th of October 2009. I signed every page in the LA's office, but was not provided with a copy until the 27th of May 2010. As such, I wasn't aware of the stipulations of the contract - particularly regarding the break clause and the notice period - until this time. The landlord claimed on the phone that he sent a copy to me by e-mail, but it emerged that he was actually talking about this date - the 27th of May.

Rent was paid (I believe) around the 15th of every month.

I gave written notice from the 31st of May. This is the letter that was sent recorded but the LA now denies they have.

I raised the issue of the LA appraising and marketing the property and the LL claimed it was in order to minimise loss, but my point to him was how did the LA know to market the property - to which he had no answer. I did not contact the LA after sending my letter of notice to advise them so there was clearly communication between their head office and the branch so that they knew to market the property. I didn't tell the branch and the landlord claims he didn't know I was leaving until "July".

Well somebody did clearly...

He then tried to suggest that the LA may have had my notice letter, but because I didn't evidence the break clause that they hadn't accepted my notice - in which case why did they not contact me to obtain the evidence?

It gets a little complicated here, so bear with me. I invoked the break clause because I was due to relocate - which I was - and at the time, because I didn't have the AST I thought relocation was the only option I had in terms of breaking the lease. The LL said I needed a letter from my company stating that I had to relocate as evidence. I was working freelance at the time, and as such I had no 'company' that could provide such a letter - hence my asking the LA for clarification on what they'd accept as evidence when I served notice - and this is written in my notice letter. When it emerged in mid/late July that I could use my redundancy to invoke the break clause, I just sent them that.

So - my reason for leaving was relocation, but I couldn't evidence that. My redundancy wasn't the reason for my wanting to leave, as that happened last November, but was the only thing I had evidence of.

That said, I know we're nitpicking now, but the contract says nothing about having to evidence my redundancy or relocation, it simply says:

The Tenant shall have the right to terminate this agreement by giving the other party not less than two months' advance written Notice should the Licensee leave the employment of or be relocated by the company outside a 40 mile radius of Greater London.

There's nothing there about providing evidence. A flimsy premise possibly, but then they're getting very aggressive on the whole contract fulfillment side, so I have every right to advise them that I didn't sign a contract that said that I had to provide them with evidence. Landlord says "well of course you have to provide evidence - it's just common sense."

I'm exhausted - I don't know if what I've said above helps, but hopefully it fills in a few gaps.

Thank you, as always...

mooks

Another thing that just struck me - when all this came to light towards the end of July, I called the landlord and he didn't answer, so left him a voicemail message asking him to contact me urgently. He didn't call back for two weeks. Does that sound like the behaviour of someone desperately trying to resolve this issue?

clutton_2

mooks - you must have NO Further conversations with ANY of them.. LL or LA or staff or anyone.... you must do everything by first class post from now on.... (just get a proof of postage from the PO and staple it to the letter - if you want to get really nitpicky send the same letter the next day first class from a different post office again getting a proof of postage docket - free service - and attach the dockets to the letters... judges will accept that at least one of these letters has arrived ......

These smartypants are trying to wear you down.. and they succeeded today... dont talk to them again.... If they call, simply say, i would prefer these negotiations to be in writing i would be grateful for a letter.. thank you good bye....

ok legal clarification please... if you signed the agreement on the 9th of the month why do you pay rent on the 15th... this is important......


you say "" The Tenant shall have the right to terminate this agreement by giving the other party not less than two months' advance written Notice should the Licensee leave the employment of or be relocated by the company outside a 40 mile radius of Greater London.

This is not straightforward normal landlord-tenant terminology


at the beginning of the agreement WHO is the "other party" and how is your self and the other party described......

i am beginning to wonder if this is a corporate let.......

how much is your rent per year ?

mooks

clutton wrote: »

mooks - you must have NO Further conversations with ANY of them..

Gladly...!

clutton wrote: »

ok legal clarification please... if you signed the agreement on the 9th of the month why do you pay rent on the 15th... this is important......

I elected to pay rent on or around the 15th because in my previous job I was paid on the 15th of the month. On my part it was simply a matter of getting the bulk of the bills out of the way ASAP.

clutton wrote: »

how much is your rent per year?

Rent per year comes to £12,219.96

I hope I don't come across as a gushing idiot, but I seriously owe a lot of people a pint. I don't know what the hell I'd be doing right now if it wasn't for the people here.

Thank you Clutton...

tbs624

Mooks - is your agreement marked up as an Assured Shorthold Tenancy? Did you take it out/negotiate the tenancy yourself or was an employer involved in some way?

Have you got *exclusive * use of the property?

What date does the Agreement, that you now have a copy of, give for (a) the rent DUE date and (b) the expiry of the Fixed Term ?

Do you have anything in writing about the change of rent payment date?

Is there any following part on that break clause, which refers specifically to notice being given to tie in with the "rental period"?

Just to clarify, had you verbally given notice , prior to getting your copy contract on 27 May and then giving written notice on 31 May?

mooks

tbs624 wrote: »

Mooks - is your agreement marked up as an Assured Shorthold Tenancy? Did you take it out/negotiate the tenancy yourself or was an employer involved in some way?

The Tenancy Agreement document I was sent on the 27th of May is headed as an 'Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement'. I negotiated the tenancy myself - my employer had nothing to do with it apart from providing an employer's reference that yes, I was employed by them.

tbs624 wrote: »

Have you got *exclusive * use of the property?

Yes

tbs624 wrote: »

What date does the Agreement, that you now have a copy of, give for (a) the rent DUE date and (b) the expiry of the Fixed Term ?

The rent due date is the 19th of the month. According to the agreement, this is the date the term started (from the 19th of October 2009). The expiry of the fixed term is the 18th of October 2010.

tbs624 wrote: »

Do you have anything in writing about the change of rent payment date?

There's nothing in there about the change of date - thinking back I think the likelihood is that I agreed to move in on the 19th and that the rent would be taken from that date. The 9th of October is the date of the agreement, but if memory serves, I didn't pay any additional rent or monies between those dates to cover the interim period.

tbs624 wrote: »

Is there any following part on that break clause, which refers specifically to notice being given to tie in with the "rental period"?

Aside from the address of the agent and the stipulation that notice be sent by recorded delivery, which I omitted from my post, the only other text relating to the break clause is as follows:

This notice can only expire after the first nine months of the tenancy.

tbs624 wrote: »

Just to clarify, had you verbally given notice , prior to getting your copy contract on 27 May and then giving written notice on 31 May?

I wrote to the landlord on the 27th of April and advised him that I intended to serve notice and move out within two months (which would have meant me being out by the end of June) but specifically stated the following:


(after confirming in the letter that I intended to move within two months)

I should state however that I am unsure as to the notice period required. Regrettably, this is linked to ongoing issues with [letting agency]

I’d like to state for the record that it’s not my intention to be unreasonable with regard to my moving out date for the property – simply that owing to [letting agency] having not provided me with a contract for the property, either on moving in or following my request in December 2009, I am not aware of the conditions of my contract regarding this.

Landlord's just e-mailed me by the way, asking for the recorded delivery details for when I sent the notice. This is getting tiresome...