Free solar panel discussion

Joseph90_2

Thank you Nang for your polite reply and a more concise point.

As I have mentioned only time will tell about exact figures and of course I will come on to this forum to share and hopefully not get bombarded with rediculous comments from people in your number 2 category!

Kind regards

grahamc2003

Joseph90 wrote: »

Thank you Nang for your polite reply and a more concise point.

As I have mentioned only time will tell about exact figures and of course I will come on to this forum to share and hopefully not get bombarded with rediculous comments from people in your number 2 category!

Kind regards

hmmm, dare I reply and run the risk of being a number 2? i think I will, in for a penny and all that!

I got a sense of deja vu when you replied about the terms of the buyout of your panels, should you wish to cancel the contract, so I must have had a similar reply before, to which I replied similar to the following...

If there are no obligations to pay the solar company the remaining fits (or part of) as well as a decreasing purchase price, then you are quids in, and the company will be lucky to survive imo.

This due to the decreasing purchase price combined with increasing FIT payments. Look ahead 10 years for example (to just after the company has installed a new inverter for you!), and you would be able to buy a £15k system today, for £5230 (depreciating at 10%pa), yet the Fit would rise from say £1250 today to £1941 at 4.5% inflation, giving a yeild in 10 years of 37%pa (and remember this is the yield the company is foregoing).

At 20 years (say just after your third inverter has been installed), the cost becomes £1824 with the fit at £3015 under the same assumptions, giving a yield of 165% pa.

Am I missing something, or are these free companies messing up their business model?

furndire

Thanks for that Dave.

zeupater

grahamc2003 wrote: »

hmmm, dare I reply and run the risk of being a number 2? i think I will, in for a penny and all that!

I got a sense of deja vu when you replied about the terms of the buyout of your panels, should you wish to cancel the contract, so I must have had a similar reply before, to which I replied similar to the following...

If there are no obligations to pay the solar company the remaining fits (or part of) as well as a decreasing purchase price, then you are quids in, and the company will be lucky to survive imo.

This due to the decreasing purchase price combined with increasing FIT payments. Look ahead 10 years for example (to just after the company has installed a new inverter for you!), and you would be able to buy a £15k system today, for £5230 (depreciating at 10%pa), yet the Fit would rise from say £1250 today to £1941 at 4.5% inflation, giving a yeild in 10 years of 37%pa (and remember this is the yield the company is foregoing).

At 20 years (say just after your third inverter has been installed), the cost becomes £1824 with the fit at £3015 under the same assumptions, giving a yield of 165% pa.

Am I missing something, or are these free companies messing up their business model?

Hi

You're right, we've been here before ..... but, as for their business model, there's not a lot to go wrong.

The rent-a-roof companies are likely paying around, or well below, £2.50/Wp (installed) for their capital outlay, for which they will be getting the usual capital investment and book depreciation allowances from HM Government. They then take the FiT and assumed export for a number of years at somewhere currently well in advance of 36p/Wp.y (based on 800kWh/kWp.y), they then have customers with options to buy-out of the contract at a price based on around £5.60/Wp (14000/2500), which doesn't seem to start to reduce until the first 5 years have expired if I've understood Joseph90's post correctly.

Looking at this as a non-accountant, but as someone with a basic understanding, I would have thought that, due to the nature of the business model, the company would be showing a significant loss over the first four years as the investment would be depreciated at 25% (open to correction), so 62.5p/Wp.y depreciation against a 36p/Wp.y in FiT revenue, with the loss being carried forward year-on-year and offset against tax until cleared .... so, taking other operating costs into consideration, probably no tax to be paid for at least 10-12 years, after which the tax burden becomes significant as the revenue stream continues and the company remains as a relatively low cost 'facilities management' operation thus driving high (taxable) margins.

At any time in the cycle a purchase of pv systems based on straight line depreciation starting at £5.60/Wp will provide a significant margin to the scheme operator, who after the initial setup period, due to the nature of the business (admin/facilities management) is easily able to contract without major upset, or simply invest the proceeds in replacement plant capacity, providing the ability to offset more profit ....

Business model looks quite healthy whether they own & operate the plant for the full 25 years or sell at some time. The only issue which they would really be worried about is the number of installations which they would be asked to remove from roofs after the full 25 years ... chances are that everyone will get an offer to buy the the system and keep the last year or so of Fit payment at a much reduced rate (say £0 ), with the alternative being that the operator will cease trading at around this time ...

Just my appraisal ...

HTH
Z

magyar

Out of interest I suspect you could get even more attractive capital allowances than this; I think it would be treated as 'plant and machinery' which attract CA's of 20% reducing balance.

Pennylane

Joseph90 wrote: »

Oh dear I come on here at the request of Martin Lewis to share my PERSONAL experience of solar panels and I get rediculed by a bored forum stalker! But hey for a bit of fun let me answer some or all of your queries.

Now let me see, mmm no thats right, I have not paid a penny to Homesun and under no contractural obligation to do so over the next 25 years.

XXXXXXXXX Unless I have misunderstood you, ALL our electricity bills have gone up to pay for people like me having free solar panels fitted, in that case makes even more sense for me to have it then, seeing as how I'm paying for it already! XXXXXX

Sorry not an expert, please see above in bold text.
Washing MachineBothered...please see above in bold text.

If you read my initial post it said that I had a reading during grey overcast which gave me sufficent power to run my washing machine.
Please see above in bold text.

Now your being silly, you know far better than me as you have done spreadsheets that there is no power generated from panels during the evening, please see above in bold text.

That was a bit insulting and personal, really no need!

One, I do not envisage us moving house in the near future. Two I also predict (I'm being brave here) that solar panels will be in such wide use in years to come that people will accept them more and who knows, cheaper home running costs no matter how slight could be attractive to some?


£0, please see above in bold text.

The bit in bold with the X's is spot on.

Dave_Fowler

I-try-hard wrote: »

Solar Quotes to buy
I have had 4 quotes for a 2.94kwp see details below of one quote. Its between £9300 - £9800. I am still on edge as what to do if I decide to move house in 5 years or so. Also you just dont know who you are getting to do the job and are they telling you the truth.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Specification[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]12 x 245Wp Sharp Solar Panels[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 4,900.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 x SMA Sunny Boy 25[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]00 Grid-tie Inverter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 1,150.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 x PV Pitched Roof Mounting System[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 580.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] x 16amp DC Isolator/s[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 35.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] x 20amp AC Isolator/s[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 54.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 x Total Generation Meter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 18.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 x 4[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]0mtr. PV Cable + Connectors[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 120.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 x 20mtr. SWA 4mm Cable + Glands[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 40.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ancillaries To Include: Fixings, MCB, Labels, Ducting Etc.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 150.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Scaffold To South Elevation[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 350.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Delivery[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 00.00[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Installation And Commissioning[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]£ 1,900.00[/FONT]

In 5 year's time, if you do move from the house, you must consider if the PV installation will add or detract from the selling price of the house. This is a decision you'll have to make. Five year's FITs will probably bring produce £5k - £6k

On the technical side, the specified inverter will be running right at the top limit of what it can do. I would probably choose the SB3000 for your panels.

Dave F

K4blades

cathd6 wrote: »

It's not just those who can afford it who benefit from this sea-change in attitudes. My local authority is officially opening a new council development of 18 homes next week where the elderly residents will be paying pennies for gas and electricity, and will have greatly reduced water bills on top.

Cath, this is a dreadful mistake, you must contact your local authority immediately.
Graham posted on here that only "well off" people can benefit from FIts and PVs.
And Cardew posted that they could only be fitted on large homes that are owner occupied.
Hasn't your LA done any research, looked at facts and evidence from many different view points, including the legal aspect, there is a massive collection of local and global evidence which your LA seem to have ignored. And all they needed to do was ask Cardew or Graham, (neither of whom have PVs by the way, though Graham has recently been quoting an article in the well informed industry guide, The Daily Star).
Now the council tenants are going to be burdened with the inconvenience of lower bills....how foolish of your Local Authority.

Cardew also told another contributor "THERE WILL BE LOTS OF DAYS WHEN YOU GENERATE NO ELECTRICTY", now I know you don't want to say where you live, but can you reassure Cardew that its not the Arctic Circle.

Still, we shouldn't let facts get in the way of an agenda.

PS, please don't ask them questions, answering them only belittles them, and they are far too busy suggestting that anyone who posts anything positive about their personal experiences, are either lying or stupid.

Cardew

K4blades
This latest post up to your usual standard.

grahamc2003

K4blades wrote: »

Cath, this is a dreadful mistake, you must contact your local authority immediately.
Graham posted on here that only "well off" people can benefit from FIts and PVs.
And Cardew posted that they could only be fitted on large homes that are owner occupied.
Hasn't your LA done any research, looked at facts and evidence from many different view points, including the legal aspect, there is a massive collection of local and global evidence which your LA seem to have ignored. And all they needed to do was ask Cardew or Graham, (neither of whom have PVs by the way, though Graham has recently been quoting an article in the well informed industry guide, The Daily Star).
Now the council tenants are going to be burdened with the inconvenience of lower bills....how foolish of your Local Authority.

Cardew also told another contributor "THERE WILL BE LOTS OF DAYS WHEN YOU GENERATE NO ELECTRICTY", now I know you don't want to say where you live, but can you reassure Cardew that its not the Arctic Circle.

Still, we shouldn't let facts get in the way of an agenda.

PS, please don't ask them questions, answering them only belittles them, and they are far too busy suggestting that anyone who posts anything positive about their personal experiences, are either lying or stupid.

Does ANYBODY - even the most ardent PV supporter, think there is any value whatsoever in such a post?

I've asked you before K4, please do not misquote me. If you wish to state that I have said something, then please supply a link instead of simply making stuff up.

If the above is typical of the level of your ability to present your views (which I'm afraid it is), then I'm afraid it is a very sad reflection of the abilities of those apparently advising others on these things as their day job. Due to your previous disclosures on here, you are representing PV installers/advisors/salesman whether you like it or not, and if I were an installer/advisor/salesman for these systems, I'd be a little concerned with your puerile input.