Free solar panel discussion

Cardew

semsley wrote: »

Just a thought but could additional electricity savings be made from solar panels by switching from say gas central heating to electric night storage heaters switched on during the day (when electricity is generated by panels) and off to generate the heat during evenings?

No it wouldn't work I am afraid.

Even if you had the largest system (for max FIT) of 4kWp you generate relatively little electricity in the winter when you need heating. Certainly not enough for even one storage heater and often you will generate nothing or very little.

Like immersion heaters, that can lose you money if you try to use them to 'soak up' PV generated electricity, you would be absolutely certain to lose money if you tried to use storage heaters.

Dave_Fowler

angeltoad wrote: »

We were assessed by Nationwide who siad they were the sister company to a Shade Greener (who refused us free ones cos roof oo small). they then said they can get just 6 panels on our south aspect roof and were willing to put them on the side roof too even hough it faces East .
I was wondering if this is really cost effecive or if hey are making money from the panel installation. Does the FiT only work well if you can generate 3 or 4 watts? He said it works on daylight not sunlight when he was talking abou uilising the side roof. ?
anyone with a smaller roof got any fedback?

It is correct that the panels work on light falling on them and it need not be sunlight BUT take for instance now: Bright sunlight, not falling on the panels yet (hits them at a very slight angle just after 9am) output = 386Watts. As soon as there is any appreciable direct sunlight the power increases sharply, rising by about 50W per minute as the sun gets on to the panels. I remember one story told by a sales rep who said 'even the streetlight outside the house will help generate electricity'.

East facing panels would stop generating anything useful soon after midday.

Now as to the viability of having panels facing due East (or West), you would certainly get more power from them in the morning (or afternoon) than panels facing due South, but as we struggle in this country to produce a reasonable average output with South facing panels soaking up the noon-day sun, I doubt if the 90 degrees off optimum panels would prove to be cost effective (whatever that phrase means).

It may be worth putting a few figures into the data generating engine on http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps3/pvest.php for your part of the country to see what the expected output would be.

In the time it's taken to write this (20 mins), the sun is now just on my panels and the output has risen to 1.1kW

Dave F

Joseph90_2

I've had some free panels installed by Homesun, and have been very impressed.

There really are no catches, and I have not had to spend any money at all, even the admin cost from our mortgage lenders were paid by Homesun!

We originally contacted Homesun in October last year by dropping a pin on our roof via their website and they contacted us by email to arrange a visit from one of their staff. Everything he told us was spot on, he even said that what with mortgage lenders permission, survey etc we should expect an installation in about 9 months, seemed a long time, but here we are all set up and saving money.

The system we had fitted was 12 large panels producing 2500kw if a nice bright sunny day and it seems that a very grey and overcast day pruduces over 600kw, still enough to do a free washing load (or 2, 3, 4).

Next to your original fusebox will be a new solar panel meter and with a push of a button you can see the amount of kw being produced at that precise moment, so you could if wanted judge how many appliances you can run for free! Please remember there is no way of storing power so you only get free electricity as it is being produced during the daytime, so delay timer functions on dishwashers, washing machine etc are very handy, also a slow cooker is handy for cooking your dinner for free during the working day.

For me it is a no brainer, yes your tied to an agreement for 25 years but baring in mind that the invertor in your loft needs changing every 10-12 years (£1,000) which is maintained and paid by Homesun and after that period the system is yours and prices for panels etc will probably have dropped like most new tech does once mass produced?

Hope this helps

digitaltoast

Joseph90 wrote: »

There really are no catches, and I have not had to spend any money at all, even the admin cost from our mortgage lenders were paid by Homesun!

Well, to be strictly accurate, the loan was provided by Homesun, but it's all paid for by the large increases we're seeing in electricity bills, and that little old lady with the small roof facing the wrong way.

Joseph90 wrote: »

The system we had fitted was 12 large panels producing 2500kw if a nice bright sunny day and it seems that a very grey and overcast day pruduces over 600kw, still enough to do a free washing load (or 2, 3, 4).

Do you mean 2500kw or 2500w? If the former, it would suggest one of the largest solar arrays in the UK. Or maybe you mean 2500kWh, in which case.. over what timespan?

So assuming you manage to time your entire wash with a break in the cloud, according to: http://www.carbonfootprint.com/energyconsumption.html

Washing Machine
187 washes per year
EU energy label A-rated gives an average consumption at 40°C using a 2kg load to be 0.63 kWh
Total cost per year: £11.78, or 6.2p/wash.

Joseph90 wrote: »

delay timer functions on dishwashers, washing machine etc are very handy

Perhaps I'm reading too much into the word "timer", but don't they work on, um, time, not sunshine levels?
So if you went out and set your washing machine for mid-day and it was heavy cloud... then what? The heating part of the cycle would undoubtedly use more than the panels were producing, so you'd still be importing.

What do you light your house with in the evening? Do you have any computers, games consoles or TVs on in the evening?

Joseph90 wrote: »

For me it is a no brainer

Yes, it seems it is.

But if saving probably an average of 3p/wash (if you're lucky) is worth renting your roof to a company for 25 years and making your house tricky to sell is worth it, then good luck.

Incidentally, I'd assume you did a fairly comprehensive spreadsheet before tying yourself in to such a long and potentially extremely costly contract if you needed to bail out. Have you got any figures we can see?

lanstrom

I last bookmarked this thread when it was on page 9 and have just revisited it as I was thinking once again about purchasing PVs.

To save time I have just read the last 10 pages and I am STILL none the wiser at to whether its worth having a system installed (Purchased outright not rent-a-roof).

I live in a 4 bedroomed house south facing in the middle of the UK. Both my wife and I work away from home and my current usage is about 95Kw per week.

Is it actually possible to get a straight forward yes or no answer to 'is it financially viable to purchase a solar installation' ?

Thanks.

Dave_Fowler

lanstrom wrote: »

I last bookmarked this thread when it was on page 9 and have just revisited it as I was thinking once again about purchasing PVs.

To save time I have just read the last 10 pages and I am STILL none the wiser at to whether its worth having a system installed (Purchased outright not rent-a-roof).

I live in a 4 bedroomed house south facing in the middle of the UK. Both my wife and I work away from home and my current usage is about 95Kw per week.

Is it actually possible to get a straight forward yes or no answer to 'is it financially viable to purchase a solar installation' ?

Thanks.

If you ignore all the little old ladies with a roof facing the wrong way, those that live in flats or rented property and just look at your financial returns I think you are likely to be better off buying a system and getting the FITs payments.

For an outright purchase where FITs are the real income, you can almost forget about the relatively small income from reduced imported power. As time goes by, the money saved from reduced imported power may well become more significant, as the price of power escalates.

If you assume you are going to be living in the house for a good long time and you are not unfortunate enough to have an inverter fail just after its warranty period then there are very few investments of around £13k which can bring back an index linked, tax free return of about 10%. But I'm sure some will disagree!

Dave F

grahamc2003

lanstrom wrote: »

I
Is it actually possible to get a straight forward yes or no answer to 'is it financially viable to purchase a solar installation' ?

Thanks.

Of course it's possible. Every solar salesman would answer Yes, almost irrespective of your circumstances. That - of course - doesn't mean it is though.

By now, you should have a pretty good idea of the return you can get from your particular panel orientation and location. Only you know whether you have a spare £15k, and whether you're likely to want a new car next year, and whether you're happy with a government guarantee, and whether you think maintenance costs will be zero or small, and a host of other factors which are particular to you.

lanstrom

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Of course it's possible. Every solar salesman would answer Yes, almost irrespective of your circumstances. That - of course - doesn't mean it is though.

By now, you should have a pretty good idea of the return you can get from your particular panel orientation and location. Only you know whether you have a spare £15k, and whether you're likely to want a new car next year, and whether you're happy with a government guarantee, and whether you think maintenance costs will be zero or small, and a host of other factors which are particular to you.

and of course the disposal cost once they are at EOL ! Wonder how much that would cost ?

Thanks for your answers guys

Cardew

Dave_Fowler wrote: »

If you assume you are going to be living in the house for a good long time and you are not unfortunate enough to have an inverter fail just after its warranty period then there are very few investments of around £13k which can bring back an index linked, tax free return of about 10%. But I'm sure some will disagree!

Dave F

I think even the sceptics will agree that buying solar PV is likely to be a good but long term investment

However I really think that talking about a return of 10% is misleading.

If I invest £13k in a building society or National savings bond, at the end of year one I still have £13k plus the interest from the investment.

'Invest' £13k in solar PV and you have some panels on your roof and inverter in your loft - and no £13k

At the end of year one you will have the income from the panels and no £13k.

Obviously after, say, ten to twelve years you will have saved a similar amount to the Building society balance and then it is profit all the way.

I just wonder if some investment company advertised a scheme where you give them £13k and have no access to that money; and after 10 to 12 years you would have all your money back, if they would have many takers.

Personally, from a financial viewpoint, I believe that the only way to look a solar PV is as an annuity. You give a company a sum of money which you will never see again, and draw an income from that money.

digitaltoast

Cardew wrote: »

Personally, from a financial viewpoint, I believe that the only way to look a solar PV is as an annuity. You give a company a sum of money which you will never see again, and draw an income from that money.

That's a good and fair way to look at it. What you didn't account for was the cost of the loan - I doubt very much whether that many people have instant access to £13k that they would be happy to take a gamble with, so a loan would be needed. So don't forget to factor in the interest.

So, you've got interest charged AND interest earned lost AND no access to your money if needed. Just something to consider.