Free solar panel discussion

K4blades

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Anything? Are you sure? So if I get my 1w generator out and connect it to my hamster wheel all in society will benefit? Of course to get this method of eletcricty generation more widespread, it would have to be subsidised by £500/kwh.

Now you may instantly see the rediculous nature of the above (but then again you may stick to your 'anything helps' stance), but solar is exactly the same on a different scale. Exactly the same reasoning you use. The scale difference is solar costs society 15 times the market rate for energy, whereas the hamster wheel would cost a 1000 times. All your arguments equally apply to the hamster wheel.

Nice one Nang.

People who make silly analogies only end up making themselves look silly.

Go on Graham, I dare you, say something constructive....I bet you can't.
Oh I know, we'll carry on burning oil and gas at ridiculously high prices, or even rediculously high prices, putting the cost of FITs in the shade, because that's your idea is it.
Instead of attacking people who try to give constructive advice, please tell us all how you think people can reduce their fuel bills without any costs, especially as we don't want the poor to contribute now do we??

grahamc2003

Nang wrote: »

To follow this augument through, if the traditional methods of power generation continue to rise as they are, won't there come a point where your hamster wheel becomes competitive without any subsidies?

When this point comes folk might be pleased that we as a nation invested in rodent based forms of power generation, because they might help to keep the price down a bit.

Might even be time to invest in a couple of insomniac mice to do the day shift.

Of course if prices continue to rise, then at some point hamsters generation will be cheaper than conventional generation (assuming hamster food rises at a slower rate). That is purely a matter of maths.

Well, doesn't that just prove that that point is really a silly basis on which to base how electricity is generated? (I'm sure you don't think hamsterpower is any pragmatic use). If it isn't a silly basis, then we should indeed have hamsterpower subsidised at £500/kwh until the day it becomes compeitive (but there are other factors rather than maths and the simply question you asked), like replacing knackered hamsters, and vet bills to keep them fit.

The point is moot. If and when any other technologies become competitive, then we should use them then, and not use them when it costs society 15 times the market cost. Remember as well as the high cost of solar, we still have to have the conbventional generation too, because solar generates nothing at the peak demand time. So it's not a choice of having solar and paying 15 times the cost or having conventional and paying the market rate - we have to do both if we want inefficient solar.

grahamc2003

K4blades wrote: »

Nice one Nang.

People who make silly analogies only end up making themselves look silly.

Go on Graham, I dare you, say something constructive....I bet you can't.
Oh I know, we'll carry on burning oil and gas at ridiculously high prices, or even rediculously high prices, putting the cost of FITs in the shade, because that's your idea is it.
Instead of attacking people who try to give constructive advice, please tell us all how you think people can reduce their fuel bills without any costs, especially as we don't want the poor to contribute now do we??

K4, I'm afraid if I made the most constructive post ever, you wouldn't have the werewithall to understand any of it.

khris210

To ronlizpatsimon
It's a 2.2 kw system (12 x 1.8) and over the period 4/5/11 to 26/5/11 it produced 236 kw =10.7 kw per day. My nett/chargeable (remember my meter goes in reverse) elect consumption since 17/11/10 has been 386 kw / 221 days = 1.746 kw per day, and from 17/11/10 to 26/5/11 the panels have produced 957kw/221 days = 4.197 kw per day. Prior to the panels it was on average over 3 years 7.5 kw per day. I don't think my usage has changed. (An update to my previous post on 31/5/11) Obviously this is during a really sunny time (in Norfolk at any rate!) I have tried not to make too many assumptions about the weather, or about interest rates, but you should compare my returns against what I could achieve from long term fixed rate investments. Let us not talk about "safety" remember Northern Rock and Iceland. We will not need access to the £10500. After 25 years we will be 93 (and me probably gaga (not Lady!) and 77 respectively and unlikely to still be in this property, if anywhere!

K4blades

grahamc2003 wrote: »

K4, I'm afraid if I made the most constructive post ever, you wouldn't have the werewithall to understand any of it.

That about sums it up doesn't it Graham. You come out with silly statements about hamsters, reject all technologies unless cost effective, (how does anything become cost effective if not invested in in the first place), and then because I ask you for some constructive ideas, you decide to attack me personally. You do your cause no good, at least Cardew offers alternatives such as factory roofs.

If you can't say anything constructive, why are taking part in this debate, clearly just to put people off doing something because you don't like it and in the mean time gas and oil is becoming less and less cost effective itself. What are your suggestions, enlighten us please, and try to do it without calling names.

John_Pierpoint

But hopefully the panels will still be generating "free" electricity (even if they are on their third inverter??).

Unfortunately fiat currency is not a store of real value, in the hands of politicians.

Don't you dare to offer to preserve the voter's wealth:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/savings/8559907/National-Savings-unnecessarily-expensive-says-Citigroup.html

K4blades

PeterZ wrote: »

All Graham ever does is criticise, which is very easy to do. Offering solutions is not his thing. Thank god we have decent engineers and scientists in the Uk who are working on the solutions.

If the UK was made up entirely of people like Graham we would all still be living in caves.

Now more than ever as energy prices rise (due to wholesale prices going up) and our energy imports rise we need to become self sufficient in energy. Renewables and nuclear, the answer is there, we just need to get on and do it.

Absolutely.

John_Pierpoint

That which perfidious politicians give is that which they can take away:

Portal to growing mass mutterings here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2001181/Hidden-green-tax-fuel-bills-How-200-stealth-charge-slipped-gas-electricity-bill.html

[...................................Hidden-green-tax-fuel-bills-How-200-stealth-charge-slipped-gas-electricity-bill.html]

The Express group (the acceptable front for pornography and newspapers of record ?) will be returning to the subject for a slightly different "readership" profile.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/186397/Eco-taxes-to-make-bills-rise-by-550

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/145196/Renewable-energy-will-lead-to-soaring-electricity-bills/

Money talks.

grahamc2003

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

That which perfidious politicians give is that which they can take away:

Portal to growing mass mutterings here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2001181/Hidden-green-tax-fuel-bills-How-200-stealth-charge-slipped-gas-electricity-bill.html

[...................................Hidden-green-tax-fuel-bills-How-200-stealth-charge-slipped-gas-electricity-bill.html]

The Express group (the acceptable front for pornography and newspapers of record ?) will be returning to the subject for a slightly different "readership" profile.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/186397/Eco-taxes-to-make-bills-rise-by-550

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/145196/Renewable-energy-will-lead-to-soaring-electricity-bills/

Money talks.

So the current cost of green measures o each customer is between £160 and £200 according to that article. About in line what I posted yesterday, and a little out from the £1 figure someone else posted.

I just wish they would have also written about the projected cost into the years ahead - already built into the system with little chance of escape.

At some stage, there will be a revolt about the 'green' cost element of rising energy prices, and the government of the time will be forced to act. That's why I don't believe that fits will last at their current levels for 25 years - as soon as sentiment turns, any political promises are worth nothing.

(just to be perfectly clear, the 'green' costs come about from subsidies to numerous inefficient 'green' 'initiatives' which otherwise wouldn't be forced onto the public).

Edit - I see that there was a predicition of the future costs in your link ....

And experts are warning the figure could rise by a crippling £548 by 2025.

K4blades

If you rely on the Daily Star for your information, theres no wonder you can't put forward a sensible argument.
If you want to know exactly how much FITs cost I can post you a link to the official report for the first 12 months. (I prefer to deal with facts).

I see you still haven't told us your preferred method of generation, it must be that wonderfully cheap gas and oil. Why are you so quick to pull apart other peoples posts, but so reluctant to answer simple questions put to you.