"You're not getting paid" When employers go bad!

Blaz

edit

SarEl wrote: »

I have two concerns here. The first is that I not not 100% convinced that there is sufficient evidence of a contract of employment rather than a contract for service; although the wording does impy a contract of employment it does depend on what esle may exist, and an implication isn't necessarily going to hold up.

My second concern is that loss of IT development is certainly a quantifiable loss - by taking the work away this could certainly be seen as something which has a cost attached. And as I said, given that this was done the employer / client may be justified in saying that he cannot trust the OP with access to his systems etc.

I'd say it's still an unclear call and depends on how the other side react. They may pay up, they may decide to slug it out.

The only kind of contract I have is this -

Hi ***,

>>> could you send me some brief details about the job just so
>>> i
>>> have written confrimation of how much ill be on, is it hourly pay or a
>>> salary. Do i get paid monthly or weekly. / confrimation of daily hours
>>> and
>>> how many hours a week. and what days of the week ect.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> ***

---

>> Hi ***
>>
>> I can confirm that you will begin employment with company name here
>> on Thursday July 22nd.
>>
>> Company name and address is written here
>>
>> Hourly rate will start at £6.50 per hour plus bonuses (With reviews)
>> Hours are : Monday - Friday 10am to 6pm.
>>
>> Regards
name here
>> M.D.

I told my X employer i could email the files or get them to him and he said he didnt want them, so he refused the files. He can use Internet security software to scan the files upon reciept whether its on a CD or email.

pinkshoes

Personally I would put the files on a CD, send it in the post along with a letter stating that here's the work you did over the 4 days that you worked for them, and they have 7 days to pay you the £208 owed as per the agreed salary detailed in the email they sent on <date> etc... and you are sorry that they no longer require your services.

Send recorded delivery. If they don't reply, send another saying same thing but entitle it "letter before action" and threaten them with small claims court.

Bamber19

SarEl wrote: »

I have two concerns here. The first is that I not not 100% convinced that there is sufficient evidence of a contract of employment rather than a contract for service; although the wording does impy a contract of employment it does depend on what esle may exist, and an implication isn't necessarily going to hold up.

My second concern is that loss of IT development is certainly a quantifiable loss - by taking the work away this could certainly be seen as something which has a cost attached. And as I said, given that this was done the employer / client may be justified in saying that he cannot trust the OP with access to his systems etc.

I'd say it's still an unclear call and depends on how the other side react. They may pay up, they may decide to slug it out.

In any event would the OP not be entitled to payment for work done?

I don't see the significance of the employer/client not trusting the OP to access the systems. Who is the employer/client meant to be justifying this to and for what reason? The OP quit, it wasn't (on the information available) constructive dismissal, and even if it was the reasons don't appear to be those where an employee could claim unfair dismissal outwith the standard need to have been employed for at least 1 year. I'm likely missing something as i don't seem to be quite with it today but It just seemed that the angle of that part of your post didn't fit in with the OP's position as it seems neither party wants to continue the employment relationship and the only question is that of the work already done.

On the subject of attaching a value to the work which has been taken away. Could the OP do as suggested by others and give it back or since the employer or client is reluctant to take it then would it be enough to simply make clear that they are not witholding this work and that it is available should the employer or client want it?

SarEl

Bamber19 wrote: »

In any event would the OP not be entitled to payment for work done?

I don't see the significance of the employer/client not trusting the OP to access the systems. Who is the employer/client meant to be justifying this to and for what reason? The OP quit, it wasn't (on the information available) constructive dismissal, and even if it was the reasons don't appear to be those where an employee could claim unfair dismissal outwith the standard need to have been employed for at least 1 year. I'm likely missing something as i don't seem to be quite with it today but It just seemed that the angle of that part of your post didn't fit in with the OP's position as it seems neither party wants to continue the employment relationship and the only question is that of the work already done.

On the subject of attaching a value to the work which has been taken away. Could the OP do as suggested by others and give it back or since the employer or client is reluctant to take it then would it be enough to simply make clear that they are not witholding this work and that it is available should the employer or client want it?

Yes, the OP could do all of these things. How well they will work I cannot presume to say. I am not taking sides here, I am simply saying that from a legal standpoint there is not sufficient clearcut evidence of the information to make a judgement call, and I am not therefore going to say that "this is conclusively the case" or "that is conclusively the case". As I said earlier, if the OP challenges this it may get paid up and all go away quietly - or not. I simply don't have enough information to say. And part of the problem is that in terms of a legal case, there may never be enough information to say one way or the other, until the decision comes down. It sometimes happens that way.

Bamber19

Ok, I'm not accusing you of taking sides, I can see what you're doing. I was just thinking that perhaps in your experience you would have come across similar situations or know the likelihood of any claim by the employer or client for the value of the work that was taken home being entertained where the employer attempted to return the work and/or made it clear to the employer at the time that they were not witholding this work. I thought it may help the OP decide his next move if simply writing to request payment for the work done fails.

SarEl

Bamber19 wrote: »

Ok, I'm not accusing you of taking sides, I can see what you're doing. I was just thinking that perhaps in your experience you would have come across similar situations or know the likelihood of any claim by the employer or client for the value of the work that was taken home being entertained where the employer attempted to return the work and/or made it clear to the employer at the time that they were not witholding this work. I thought it may help the OP decide his next move if simply writing to request payment for the work done fails.

Sorry - didn't think you were accusing me of taking sides. I was just pointing out that I am not! To be honest, nobody in their right mind would employ a barrister on something this "minor" - it'd cost an arm and a leg. But the principles are the same as something bigger, and yes, I have seen such arguments over contracts of service. I'd hope that the threat of taking it further shook something loose from the tree - as I said, I wouldn't want to call it because there really isn't enough information for me to go on. The OP doesn't have much in the way of evidence, and as I said, it implies but is not conclusive. I have no idea what the other side will say - although I can make several educated guesses, and all of them muddy the water significantly. But it's all speculation. Wish I could come up with something better, but on this occasion I can't.

Although perhaps one lesson that is worth money for the OP - get things in writing and clearer in future!

laurz121

One thing I'd like to point out is that the OP has admitted that they deliberately went off sick to give them a few days to think about the job, with that in mind how can he also say that he took the files home to work on them at home? If the boss found this thread (and the OP has copy and pasted a presumably confidential email in here and included his real name so that might be easier to do than you'd imagine) could there be any legal ramifications for the OP or could it harm his case?

Blaz

laurz121 wrote: »

One thing I'd like to point out is that the OP has admitted that they deliberately went off sick to give them a few days to think about the job, with that in mind how can he also say that he took the files home to work on them at home?

Even though I was considering quitting, i really needed a job so despite this I took the files home to work on them because I was on a trial and i'd hoped it might make me look good in the event that i stayed, obviously it backfired on me. But that doesnt matter, what matters is i did work for this man, ive offered him the files back and he refused them as well as refused to pay me.

So I should write him a letter, should I send him the files? What if he uses them for advertising and still doesnt pay me though??

Blaz

Bump!

So I should write him a letter, should I send him the files? What if he uses them for advertising and still doesnt pay me though??

paulwf

To be honest I would just move on and spend your time and energy on finding a new job, you'll get much better reward from it in the long run.

You've just graduated and you've had a nasty reality check into what full time career jobs can be like. I expect quite a few people here have started a new job and walked out after a few days - I certainly have. It's just part of life, it doesn't happen that often but sometimes you have to know when to cut your losses.

Technically the employer owes you the money. On the other hand you haven't submitted any work to him (it sounds like you intentionally witheld it) then went sick when you weren't. Although this isn't a legal position I don't think either party owes each other anything. The boss doesn't sound like a nice character and you never know when you'll bump into someone. Move on, forget it and get job hunting.