The destruction of the Middle Classes commences

chucky

ILW wrote: »

As is now coming to light, there is no point in getting a degree for many people. For a fair few, three years work experience would be more valuable.

being practical that should be the case.
experience in the subject matter can be more useful than a degree.

what makes it more difficult is that some employers seem to filter out anyone in their 20s who hasn't got a degree.

marklv

ILW wrote: »

As is now coming to light, there is no point in getting a degree for many people. For a fair few, three years work experience would be more valuable.

So what would you say to people who invested time and money in a degree? Especially a non-vocational one such as history or philosophy?

bendix

I fully support globalisation and have absolutely no problem with the middle classes losing their jobs to skilled overseas suppliers, if that is the most effective option. Tough luck - protectionism never works and it is encumbent upon businesses and service providers to find ways to meet service needs in the most cost effective way. It is you lot, after all, who want dirt cheap goods and services.

You can't have it both ways.

ILW

marklv wrote: »

So what would you say to people who invested time and money in a degree? Especially a non-vocational one such as history or philosophy?

On purely financial and commercial grounds, for many it was a total waste of time and money. But if you enjoyed the experience and think it was worth the money, then fine.

marklv

ninky wrote: »

the professions remain protected due to strong unions (aka 'professional bodies') - barristers, doctors, architects etc. these are all very middle class careers.

Hmmm, not sure. There are already a lot of foreign doctors practising in UK hospitals. If the government wants to, they can invite more and more foreign doctors over on contracts that undercut UK ones yet are good enough to attract talent from overseas. Infact, the whole NHS could quite easily be outsourced at a fraction of current UK costs, leaving British trained doctors to focus on private work, accept large pay cuts or go abroad. If the NHS is to survive, salaries need to reflect reality.

Even the legal profession is not exempt. Foreign solicitors with UK accreditation can quite easily offer services from overseas, especially now with the internet.

marklv

bendix wrote: »

I fully support globalisation and have absolutely no problem with the middle classes losing their jobs to skilled overseas suppliers, if that is the most effective option. Tough luck - protectionism never works and it is encumbent upon businesses and service providers to find ways to meet service needs in the most cost effective way. It is you lot, after all, who want dirt cheap goods and services.

You can't have it both ways.

True in a sense, but not very patriotic. The aim should be to adapt to the global market, not surrender to it.

Kohoutek

bendix wrote: »

I fully support globalisation and have absolutely no problem with the middle classes losing their jobs to skilled overseas suppliers

Do you realise that it's your taxes that will go towards welfare for these people?

bendix wrote: »

if that is the most effective option. Tough luck - protectionism never works and it is encumbent upon businesses and service providers to find ways to meet service needs in the most cost effective way. It is you lot, after all, who want dirt cheap goods and services.

You can't have it both ways.

Well in China, the example every keeps raving about, they have capital controls, a currency fixed at an artificially low value against their largest trading party and extensive state ownership/control of industry and the financial sector. I think that probably counts as protectionism....

bendix

marklv wrote: »

True in a sense, but not very patriotic. The aim should be to adapt to the global market, not surrender to it.

What does patriotism have to do with anything?

In another post, marklv, you lamented that you struggled to find a political party to fit your views which you described as left wing economically and right of centre on social issues. There is a party just for you - it's called the BNP.

What frustrates me about these debates is how one-sided they always are. The little-Englanders lament losing jobs to Johnny Foreigner (either through immigration or outsourcing), yet ignore the fact there are more Brits working overseas (taking foreigners) jobs than the other way around, and that numerous foreign companies choose to have their manufacturing facilities here instead of in, say, Japan or the states where their home operations are.

Do we complain when Sony opens a new manufacturing centre in Tyneside, for example, rather than Kyoto? Do we hell.

At the end of the day, companies will go where they think it makes most commercial sense. If Britain can't compete, so be it. Britain will have to change. Our people will have to change. If they don't . . well, tough luck. We seem to think we have some god-given right to have people employed and that we're superior to Johnny Foreigner. We're not. Before blaming foreigners or the government or big business, the English, American, French etc working and middle classes who stand to be more affected should take a good long hard look at themselves.

Kohoutek

bendix wrote: »

numerous foreign companies choose to have their manufacturing facilities here instead of in, say, Japan or the states where their home operations are.

Do we complain when Sony opens a new manufacturing centre in Tyneside, for example, rather than Kyoto? Do we hell.

The reason that Japanese manufacturers built factories in Europe and the United States is because of protectionism against Japanese imported goods, not because they want to give foreigners jobs.

Linton

ILW wrote: »

As is now coming to light, there is no point in getting a degree for many people. For a fair few, three years work experience would be more valuable.

Possibly would be, though perhaps not so enjoyable.

However, there is little opportunity for people without a degree to gain the type of work experience that would lead to better things in the future.

Companies cant afford to take the risk that someone without a degree hasnt got a degree because they are incapable of it. At least with a degree there has been some level of selection.