Tenants - are you happy for your personal data to be shared ?

john539

There is obviously a big problem.

Data being uploaded without tenants knowledge or control by individuals (landlords), not companies where they might have more balanced judgement, written formal working practices.

Landlords have their own agendas & can easily exagerrate problems/debts/damage without it being verified.

So you can have incorrect unverified data incorrectly or maliciously linked to the tenant.

clutton_2

""Clutton declines to tell us exactly what information she is sent when she gets a rogue tenant alert, and nobody has told us exactly what is sent out as a request for an extended search ""

i cannot reveal how someone elses business model works... if the owners of the site wish to come here and tell you - that is their prerogative.. not mine.....

hang on a minute.. they did come here and explain ... and their post seems to have mysteriously disappeared......

i suspect someone from this thread has asked Martin/Mods to withdraw their posts on the grounds of "a company selling its wares" .........

that is NOT why LRS came here.. they came here to explain as much as they could as to what their website was all about....

now that they are not here anymore... there will not be any form of balanced debate.... and this thread will become just another landlord-bashing thread.......

surprise surprise


Lydia says "" I support efforts to protect LLs by forewarning them if prospective Ts have a history of rent arrears and/or damage. "

ok - what ideas do you have for us landlords to get fair, legal and decent forewarning of bad tenants ?

come on ... all your angry tenants... give us some ideas....


How can we sort out the wheat from the chaff.. without upsetting the vast majority of excellent tenants.....

tbs624

"ali" you are clearly a sock puppet

As in the thread on Property Tribes, it's not that other people aren't prepared to have a two way discussion , it' s your own attitude that's the real put-off. People are raising perfectly normal concerns about Ts personal data being passed around amongst LLs, when they have done nothing that would cause any other LL alarm and you seem to get angry with them for doing so. That is categorically not the action of someone who wants , quote, a democratic two sided debate.It's that of someone who wants others to agree with him rather than them voice their own valid opinions.

LydiaJ

Clutton, I don't know exactly how it can be done, but I hope a way can be found. Probably by something rather like the LRS, I suspect. I have already said more than once that I found it less threatening once you explained that NINOs were not being sent out. I would be very happy to have my further misgivings sorted out as well. I had nothing to do with Paul's removal from the site, and would like him to be on here to respond to our concerns.

If you don't want to give away somebody else's business model, perhaps you could answer this: consider the format of information that you receive about a rogue tenant - which you say doesn't include their name or NINO. Would you be happy for your information to be sent out in exactly that format to thousands of people? Not obviously to label you as a bad tenant, of course, but perhaps to say you are a LL whose T has been dissatisfied with the service they have received from you (however stupid their POV)?

ali pasaul I suspect you may be in contact with Paul Routledge or somebody else from LRS, or at least that you have belonged to it for long enough to know how it works, in which case I hope you can tell us a bit more about it. I hope you can see that sending details to individual LLs who have asked for info about specific Ts is one thing, but sending out Ts' details to their entire membership as an extended search is something else. I personally would be perfectly happy for a potential LL to contact any or all of my previous LLs, but I would not want my name being sent out to thousands of people I don't know (and potentially several whom I do know since I know several LLs) who have absolutely no need to know that I want to move house. Would you?

LydiaJ

The website states that alerts go out to all members in the local area and extended search requests go to all members in surrounding areas too.

In my case (assuming that LRS takes off and most LLs join) this would include my boss, at least two people I work with, and two members of my family - precisely the people I might not want to know if I were in some kind of vulnerable or abusive situation. (I'm not, BTW, but I have friends who have been, and I'm concerned for people like them.)

clutton_2

Lydia.. thank you for your reasoned argument on here...

having become a tenant myself about 2 years ago - i now realise, even more than before, the fear surrounding the giving over of personal information and the intrusiveness of that process....

However, with arrears at an all time high nation-wide and property damage increasing quite alarmingly ( and thus insurance costs) landlords are looking for more accurate methods of referncing and preventing such occurences.

I am not at all sure that i understand your comment ""this would include my boss, at least two people I work with, and two members of my family - precisely the people I might not want to know if I were in some kind of vulnerable or abusive situation"

The whole aim of this process is to reference tenants ability to pay the rent and to not damage the property... NOT to divulge private information about their lives and relationships.....


When i am contacted by LRS, they give me the barest minimum of data of a particular individual whose prevoius landlord is alerting other landlords to large rent arrears or serious damage to a property. If i recognise those details as those belonging to a prospective tenancy application i am considering, i would then contact LRS and ask them to ask the previous landlord to call me so that i can ask for further information.

In case this feels odd to tenants, let me assure you that this happens day in day out with conversations between landlords, letting agents, local authorities, housing associations, employers, etc etc etc

If I want a reference for a tenant from their ex-landlord, a housing association, i will want them to verify all the information i have on that tenant and that will include NINO, DOB, previous address, employer, in fact eveything on their tenancy application form.... Housing Associations only give me that information BECAUSE tenants have signed a Data Protection disclaimer....

Without that disclaimer they give me nothing.. and rightly so.... (they charge me £69 for the privilege as well !!!) I digress

Which of you tenants on here went to the trouble of asking for a copy of the tenancy application form you completed so that you can see exactly what you have agreed to ?

Tenants, please read the Data Protection disclaimer sheet that most of you sign when applying for a property.. you are giving the LL, and others, permission to investigate you and to pass on information which may be relevant for fraudulent behaviour ......

an example of this is... a LL has duty to report housing benefit fraud if s/he suspects a tenant of so doing....


Again i ask... HOW can us landlords reference you tenants without upsetting the majority of you, when it is only a handful (nationwide) who cause the problems..... help us to help you

tbs624

clutton wrote: »

now that they are not here anymore... there will not be any form of balanced debate.... and this thread will become just another landlord-bashing thread......

surprise surprise

<sigh> Clutton , it did not look like there was much of a "balanced debate" on this subject over on property tribes and Paul was most definitely there, just as he still is here.

You are missing the point: do stop being so melodramatic. It has little to do with "LL bashing" and far more to do with posters voicing disquiet over the increasing level of data creep, often without the data subject's full knowledge or consent

clutton wrote: »

come on ... all your angry tenants... give us some ideas....

Just because someone expresses a concern it does not mean that they are "angry" and, once again, you are simply making assumptions about who or what other posters are.

LLs *do* have a rough time when they get a "rogue T" in place, just as Ts have a rough time when they find themselves landed with a shoddy/negligent/criminal LL. It does not mean however that the majority of Ts who are decent ( we are agreed on that one) should have to agree to be subject to this level of information exchange.

The DPA states quite clearly that data should only be retained for a limited time. You could have a T who takes up a straightforward 6 month tenancy between house sale/purchase and will never be a T again and yet his former LL sees fit to hand Paul's firm his full name, DOB, and NINO.

LydiaJ

No, I've never had any problems with any of my LLs, and they've never said they've had any problems with me.

Clutton, thank you for your equally reasoned response. I can see that what I said about the LLs I know was ambiguous - sorry. Let me try to make it clearer. My primary worry about LRS is not the rogue tenant alerts, but the extended search requests.

The 2nd security system in place to protect landlords against bad tenants and the reason that all landlords should be members irrespective whether they are looking for a reference or not is because of the alert system which only goes out to members; When a Landlord searches a name and if the search comes back with “No Information” this may be for one of two reasons – firstly, it may be their previous landlord has not become a member (which we cannot prevent) or secondly it may be that their previous landlord has not uploaded them but for whichever reason there is a solution. If Landlords request a “extended search” in the message box which is at the bottom of the search a tenant page, this will initiate their data controller to send out an alert to all the members in their area to ask whether any member has any knowledge of the prospective tenant. The reason for this is that many Landlords physically cannot go back over the years and upload their old tenants but they generally can remember them; so, by sending out alerts it does give us the opportunity to prod a landlord into recalling that tenant - especially if it was a bad one, This helps the Landlord who registered the tenant two-fold; firstly, if the tenant is going to do a “moonlight” and breach his existing agreement, then this will be the first warning that their tenant is on the move and, secondly, if the tenant has already left, then it will give the old landlord the opportunity to contact the proposed one and let them know, without doubt, if the tenant has conned or scammed them. It is a double secure system for both the old and the new Landlord.

Thus if I apply to rent a house, and LRS does not hold a rent history for me (for whatever reason) then every LL (well, every LRS member) in my local area and surrounding areas will be informed that I am trying to move house. This is the kind of information that vulnerable people might need to have kept confidential from people they know who just happen to be LLs.

tbs624

clutton wrote: »

Tenants, please read the Data Protection disclaimer sheet that most of you sign when applying for a property.. you are giving the LL, and others, permission to investigate you and to pass on information which may be relevant for fraudulent behaviour

Some may hold the view that LLs should be required to sign a similar disclaimer. The T is after all committing him/herself to a business relationship with an unknown and handing over a pretty large sum of money plus all that personal information:certainly enough to commit an ID theft. The T is also putting all of his or her possessions in to a property to which the LL or LA holds a key.

clutton wrote: »

an example of this is... a LL has duty to report housing benefit fraud if s/he suspects a tenant of so doing....

Sometimes it's not the T who is committing a form of housing benefit fraud:

The residential property tribunal heard the case on 20 August 2009 and was satisfied that Mr Bansal had knowingly operated an HMO that should have been licensed with the council and that he had been receiving housing benefit payments for his tenants all the while it was unlicensed. Consequently they made a rent repayment order requiring Mr Bansal to repay £13,476.76 housing benefit to the council.

We could also add one of Miss Moneypenny's favourite topics - LLs who are effectively committing mortgage fraud by failing to seek CTL or a switch to a BTL mortgage.

Some may also think that the LL's previous record on deposit return should be a matter open to all future Ts.

clutton wrote: »

Again i ask... HOW can us landlords reference you tenants without upsetting the majority of you, when it is only a handful (nationwide) who cause the problems..... help us to help you

Please help other readers of the thread by confirming again the full information that you already ask for before letting a property to a potential T?

LydiaJ

ali_pasaul wrote: »

Ok I can see this being a problem for vulnerable woman and children etc: but never the less it may be an escape route for many however a very very important point and it needs to be revaluated to make sure the vulnerable are not exposed, I will email Paul now and I am sure as a very logical and very handsome fellow albeit banned from the site, he will inform all data controllers to cease and desist this action tom until it is re-viewed. Thank you

Thank you very much. I recommend that he takes advice from people who know a lot more about vulnerable people (of various descriptions) than I do before he decides how to deal with this.