Criminal because my train was late?

Mark_Hewitt

It's all fine saying "well you should have..." but the OP acted in good faith and faced with a situation where he didn't know what to do he asked an employee and then acted upon this. It's alright saying "oh you committed an offence" but the law is based on intent, there's no way he should be out of pocket due to this.

Coupon-mad

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

It's all fine saying "well you should have..." but the OP acted in good faith and faced with a situation where he didn't know what to do he asked an employee and then acted upon this. It's alright saying "oh you committed an offence" but the law is based on intent, there's no way he should be out of pocket due to this.

Agreed, the OP did nothing wrong (surely nothing illegal!) and should continue to appeal IMHO.

I wouldn't pay this! What's the final appeals point I wonder - I'd appeal it all the way.

Only last month my teenage son had the same situation - a delayed train meant his two ongoing Advance tickets (carefully researched for the cheapest price and purchased on trainline.com) would not apply on the later trains he'd have to catch.

Luckily we'd already talked through this scenario and he did what I'd advised him to do - he got the back of his 'delayed train' ticket signed by a staff member at the station while he was waiting (who even put a paragraph of explanation of what had happened). The following tickets were checked and were with different Rail companies - but all was OK when he showed his proof of delayed journey.

Like the OP, he would have had no way of paying for any other full-price ticket as he was on his return journey from an overnight visit to see a University, had spent most of his cash and has no credit card.

I feel for the OP and would love to see a positive outcome.

sassy_one

epm-84 wrote: »

That is very wrong information so please ignore it.

The member of staff's advice was in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (the laws of the railway) and the conductor on the train was breaching them by not accepting your ticket when the previous service had been cancelled, even though it was operated by a different company.

Please don't tell the OP to ignore my advice, when in it 100% correct.

Has the OP got evidence to prove what the member of staff at the station told him?

I stand by my original post OP, which is in fact 100% correct.

I hope however you are managing to sort something out

Quentin

sassy-one wrote: »

Please don't tell the OP to ignore my advice, when in it 100% correct................................

I stand by my original post OP, which is in fact 100% correct.

Anyone reading your outrage at us being again advised to ignore another of your posts will hopefully just smile knowingly and reach for the ignore sassy button!

Lemonade_Pockets

I've had similar things happen to me in the past however i have always gone to the train Operator before getting on the subsequent train to explain the situation. They usually check that delay has occured for obvious reasons but they have issued me with a new ticket each time which is valid for the later service on the second part of my journey.

I know its not much help to the OP now but if anyone else gets stuck this would be my advice to avoid the situation.

yorkie2

sassy-one wrote: »

Also, you should have paid the fair THEN reclaimed the delayed fair via the means stated for that company, who would have refunded some of the ticket.

I disagree strongly. You'd never get it back.

sassy-one wrote: »

In sense OP, you have committed a criminal offence, simple as, and the fact this guy gave you a fixed ticket instead made you VERY lucky as they don't give them out to just anyone, as in your case, they know people just won't pay them, so what's the point.

Not true, the OP clearly did not intend to avoid payment for his journey.

sassy-one wrote: »

I would pay for this ticket NOW and don't delay in doing so then apply for a refund for the delayed train with your bought ticket, as you should have done in the first case.

You will probs not be a few ££ down but lesson learned!

What lesson would that be?

sassy-one wrote: »

The OP should have brought a new ticket to travel on the different train, then at some point requested a refund for the delay/cancellation to the other.

What documentation or conditions can you state to support your argument, please?

alanrowell wrote: »

This OP shows one of the problems of split ticketing - each ticket is treated as a separate journey and it's your responsibility to ensure that you have enough time to catch the next train.

Really? Where is this documented?

moonrakerz wrote: »

I would suggest the OP goes to a dedicated rail forum - some of the advice given already is, shall we say, misleading !

Try:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/

That's good advice. Some people here have posted very inaccurate advice and claimed it as 'fact'.

diddlydum wrote: »

I would complain to the Train Operating Companies responsible- East Midlands Trains (for the Norwich to Peterborough leg) and East Coast (for the Peterborough to York leg). You might want to ring them up, especially about the member of staff with East Coast- it would have taken him two minutes to verify your story with East Coast control.

If you can prove that you had the tickets to travel, and that there were delays, then you should be OK. If you pay I don't think you will ever see that money again.

I would have taken my chances with the police. It is an offence to travel on a train without a valid ticket with the intention of not paying. IMHO you had a valid ticket because of the engineering works, something which is easily verified (presumably you had the Norwich-Peterborough ticket still in your wallet).

I agree with all that. Although I cannot be sure about taking chances with the police.

epm-84 wrote: »

The other thing to note is Norwich station is not a penalty fare station see http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3E9B9EB4-B5D9-4B5F-9272-F965FC3D5F57/0/PenaltyFaresLeaflet.pdf so the penalty fare notice you've been given is technically invalid, but someone else should be able to advise best whether you need to pay and then appeal or whether to not pay.

Good advice. It's not a Penalty Fare, it's an Unpaid Fare Notice. Appealing UFNs is not exactly easy unfortunately!

alanrowell wrote: »

Except that OP had separate tickets - and so the responsibility under the CoC ended when he reached Peterborough.

Blimey, you're reading a different National Rail Conditions of Carriage to the one I've read then!

Altarf wrote: »

Section 19 of the CoC states -

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

So it is clear the the CoC accept that the OP was making one journey, not two, even though they held two tickets.

I agree. ATOC also agree. But East Coast do not agree. Hmm...

Livingthedream wrote: »

Cheers, moonrakerz, another 10 page debate on 2 advance tickets = 1 journey, oh well Yorkie will be happy. :rotfl:

But to be fair, it is a valid point, you will get a lot of correct advice from this forum on your problem.

haha!

FARE-COP wrote: »

The poster who suggested that the staff on the final train was in breach of CoC in not accepting the ticket because of a claim of previous advice is not correct. The staff on that train only had the OPs word for what had occurred and no evidence to suggest that acceptance of the ticket had been authorised.

That's the member of staff's problem. He can call control and ask them to check TRUST.

FARE-COP wrote: »

National CoC 25 makes clear that neither the TOCs, the public or Police have any authority to arbitrarily vary the CoC however, had an informal authority been given in writing with evidence of the staff dealing with the problem, then it would not have been questioned.

There is no need to "vary the CoC"! The CoC has been adhered to by the OP!

anewman wrote: »

Ah I'm glad I use the car instead of the train now. Penalty fare this, expected to pay the full fare and reclaim the cheap one you booked in advance. What a load of BS. The Gestapo are employed for fare revenue protection now then?!

There's about 10 Newcastle based EC guards who are a disgrace to their profession. But the vast majority, many hundreds in fact, do a good job.

sassy-one wrote: »

Please don't tell the OP to ignore my advice, when in it 100% correct.

Has the OP got evidence to prove what the member of staff at the station told him?

I stand by my original post OP, which is in fact 100% correct.

I hope however you are managing to sort something out

Please don't tell epm-84 not to tell people to ignore your advice, as your advice is not even slightly correct, let alone 100%. Perhaps you can quote the various conditions that back up your claims? Thought not...

But I will back up my argument with some quotes:-

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

"If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey...."

I think that's pretty conclusive.

And before anyone posts any conflicting terms, if there is a doubt about the meaning of the terms then there is legislation to deal with that.

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

Written contracts
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

I think it's clear, but if it is not clear, the consumer should win.

andygb

Here is how I see the situation.
The OP purchased a ticket in good faith in advance. The train which the OP planned to catch was cancelled because of over running engineering works - so whatever happened after this event, was down to the railway companies. If they cannot provide a train to run in accordance with the timetable/rules, which they have initiated, then they have breached the terms of the contract between themselves and the passengers.
I have argued this case over the past fifteen years, when various trains have been cancelled, and I have had to use alternative routes to get home, or get to work.
I have never paid a penalty fare, and I never will, because I always buy the correct ticket. However, when the operating company decides to cancel trains for whatever reason - leaves on the line, snow, lack of staff, engineering works, train failure, then they have failed to provide a service for which I have paid.