A question about milk production ...

Moggles_2

Also, some nonorganic milk comes from dairy herds fed on genetically-modified animal feed, a sort of fast food for cattle, imported from the USA.

IMO, the best way to keep the United Kingdom GM-free is to support home-produced, organic lines.

tiredwithtwins

impster wrote:

I have to admit i'm quite appalled at what's being said on this thread - and to be honest, the quote above is just one of the many on this thread that has simply reinforced my belief that these 'horror' stories are spreading out of control. I'm not a farmer, but do live in a strong farming area and have many friends who are farming.

Please, please do not believe everything negative that's written about farming. Dairy cattle do are not mistreated - quite the opposite. This sounds silly but a miserable cow has a very low milk yield. It's in the dairy farmers' interest to keep their herds in the best of health, with good 'living' conditions and pastures as lush as possible. Ill-health or stressful conditions are massively detrimental to milk yield, fat content of milk etc.

As for them being 'kept' pregnant - this is vastly exagurated. Admitedly pregnancy rejuvenates lactaction, but please don't think of cattle as breeding machines.

I am so annoyed at some pressure groups - some of which are pretending to be educational organisations - who will do whatever they can to spread misinformation about what is in the most part a perfectly legitimate industry.

Believe me - any farmers who mistreat their stock are soon found out by the farmers who treat their stock well - and as you can probably imagine, word spreads and pretty soon wheels are put in motion to deal with the situation.

By all means, become veggie or vegan - but please don't do it simply based upon the exagurations and lies that are often spread.

Impster.

hi impster,
thank you for giving a balance to the thread - its interesting to hear, as i have heard this mentioned a lot too.
the thing is, how do we know where our 'ordinary' (for want of a better word) milk is coming from? how do we know what milk comes from the farms that treat their herd well, and what milk comes from the intense methods described?
thanks impster and tr3mor for thier informative posts:T

impster

tiredwithtwins wrote:

the thing is, how do we know where our 'ordinary' (for want of a better word) milk is coming from? how do we know what milk comes from the farms that treat their herd well, and what milk comes from the intense methods described?
thanks impster and tr3mor for thier informative posts:T

Do a search for your local dairy processing plant on google. Either that or make a note of who runs the milk container lorries you see travelling about. You may even find the telephone number of the processing plant on the side of the milk carton. You can find out about milk as you would any other product. Contact them, and ask for their control measures. Milk on farms is spot checked regularly to ensure quality. Any problems are noted and can often lead to further checks not only for the herd but for the farm on which they're based. As I mentioned earlier, 'bad farmers' are soon found out and face quite a stigma - either by the regulatory bodies or their peer group.

As for intense methods described - milk in the UK is not really intensively produced. The milk quota system ensures that over-supply is not an issue. Basically, in very simple terms, it works like this.

The UK has a daily 'requirement' for 'x' pints of milk.
The UK has 'y' numbers of dairy farms.
Divide 'x' by 'y' and you've got a basic quota per farm. Common sense dictated that smaller dairy farms get less quota, and larger farms get more. Farms can purchase excess quote from other farms to suit their own needs. This of course is paid for by them, so the incentive to produce as much milk as possible is not there.

Ignoramuses who scream out that dairy farmers pump every last possible drop of milk from their herds are completely wrong. IF they want to sell that milk to the chain, they need to ensure that they have the quota to do so. Quota is not cheap to buy. Farmers are much better off keeping they're herds healthy and find their own level of supply and then adjusting their quota to suit.

This is my opinion which is based on good old fashioned common sense backed up by a little information - milk is a good all round product. I see no ethical, moral, or other reason not to drink it (unless religious or medical). Having seen how clean and well run dairy farms have to be, I have no qualms in bottle feeding my child with the stuff, and would not want to consider giving her anything else. The same is true for meat production - support your local butcher who should be able to give you the history of that meat from gate to plate (or from grass to gravy!) and you will have no problems. A good butcher whom you can trust is his/her own regulatory body.

Oh dear, I think I've got stated against this anti-farming propoganda again.

Remember folks, since the whole BSE thing and Foot & Mouth a few years ago, the UK has almost the most stringent farming standard controls of any other country on the planet (true). However, propoganda (which for some people is such a thrill to believe) is fuelling a totally false argument against agriculture.

Maybe some of these horror stories are true, but I am quite prepared to put my reputation on the line and say that the truth of these horror stories are in the minimum. UK farming and farmers are working hard to get rid of these lies, and increasingly we're seeing farming co-operatives being established in order to provide the end customer with better traceability, reassurance, and quality of produce. THis is true for both meat and dairy produce.

I will say again - I'm not a farmer, but I have studied British Industries at length, including the much maligned UK farming industry.

BTW, for what it's worth - organic milk does seem to taste better. For a proper 'hit' though - try fresh cow's milk - straight from the udder. Moo indeed.

Impster

Mrs_pbradley936

Just to add to the debate

www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/organic.html

Mrs_pbradley936

This is a quote from the above link for those who do not want to read the whole thing:-

Many consumers who "fork over a little more" believe that the foods themselves are more nutritious, safer, and tastier. But the USDA proposal itself noted that, "No distinctions should be made between organically and non-organically produced products in terms of quality, appearance, or safety." In other words, no claim should be made that the foods themselves are better—or even different! Some consumers believe that buying "organic" foster agricultural practices that are better for the environment.

Jo138

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to drink cow's milk. :eek: I was weaned (just the same as all other species are) and never drank milk again. Why spend money on milk when it's so easy to go without? How very MSE of me

Cows are BRED to have large udders - come on big-breasted ladies, tell us what it's like to have 'udders' which are tooooooo large? Uncomfortable?? Want them reduced? You can't tell me that cows are happy with them either.

I'm 54 and fit as a fiddle (except, since an accident, I have problems walking).

Ken-Dodds-Hairy-Knodule

impster wrote:

I have no qualms in bottle feeding my child with the stuff, and would not want to consider giving her anything else.

Wow, what a fantastic parent you must be. You would only bottle feed your child another animals milk but not the very human milk that the child is supposed to eat.

amboy

Ken-Dodds-Hairy-Knodule wrote:

Wow, what a fantastic parent you must be. You would only bottle feed your child another animals milk but not the very human milk that the child is supposed to eat.

Please lets not turn this into a human v animal milk debate.

Moggles_2

Originally Posted by pbradley936
"No distinctions should be made between organically and non-organically produced products in terms of quality, appearance, or safety."

This article was written in the USA and the sources quoted are all American. IMO, its flawed, out-of-date arguments have little relevance here in the UK, where we are fortunate in having the Soil Association's stringently-regulated system of certification.

There's no evidence that organic milk is better.

There's no evidence, because scientists haven't looked.

The effect on human health is contentious, because currently there's no record of who drinks organic milk and which of us don't.

On the other hand, the unrestricted use of pesticides and fertilisers is harmful to human health and there is incontrovertible evidence of damage to our environment.

* * * * *
The official line that there's no nutritional difference between organic milk and intensively farmed produce is about to be challenged at last.

Researchers from the universities of Glasgow and Liverpool analysed milk from organic and conventional farms over a three year period. (For more details, see #21 above)

It turns out "you are what you eat" applies to cows as well as people. The nutritional content of milk from organic farms rose significantly in the months when their animals were able to graze outside. Regular doses of clover, which is rich in essential fatty acids, on pastures not treated with artificial fertilisers or pesticides, raises the nutritional content of the cows' milk to an average 68% more than nonorganic milk.

The researchers have now asked the Food Standards Agency for formal recognition that organic milk is nutritionally superior.

** * * *
The UK organic food market grew 30% last year, two-thirds of primary produce being home-grown. Clearly, an increasing number of shoppers think organic is best.

impster

Ken-Dodds-Hairy-Knodule wrote:

Wow, what a fantastic parent you must be. You would only bottle feed your child another animals milk but not the very human milk that the child is supposed to eat.

Wow, that's really funny - a great use of sarcasm - nice one! :rotfl:

I think that most others on this forum would have gotten my point. At one year old, babies can be weaned off their mothers' milk and on to commercially available milk, which is (whatever your opinion) pretty much the norm in the developed world.

If you are able to look a bit deeper into my point, you'll have also understood that the underlying message I'm trying to make is that rather than go to alternatives to 'milk', I'm happy (like millions of others across the globe for centuries) to feed cow's milk to my child - as it is nutritious, wholesome, tasty, and a very easy way to provide many of the dietary requirements to babies, children, adults, and possibly to you (dependant on your views/dietary habits etc).

The original point of this thread was to establish whether milk production is in any way harmful to the animals concerned. Let's not get personal and criticise my parenting skills, as I don't believe the moderators would appreciate that any more than I do here.

As I have said, for the most part, milk production in the UK is well regulated, and the animals are well treated. Misconceptions and misinformation is not a valid reason in my opinion to turn to vegetarianism or veganism. Personal moral reasons, or other personal reasons based on fact howver, are perfectly valid.

Impster.