Had work done on gas/elecs what certification can we expect from fitter?

kittykat23uk

Hello,

We are homeowners, and have had some work done on our house. Can anyone please tell me what certification should be provided following the servicing and repair of a gas boiler, fitting of a new thermostat and renewal of electrics for an immersion heater, the installation of a new gas cooker and diagnosis/fixing of an associated recurrant gas leak?

The reason I ask is that our kitchen fitter has so far failed to provide us with any certification for the works and more worringly I believe he may not have been fully qualified to undertake the original work, though I understand he has since got a more qualified gas engineer in to service the boiler and seal the leak. We've not seen his or this other guy's ID despite my asking.

For background information, he was commissioned to fit a kitchen which included relocation of electrical sockets, new outside light socket and installation of a new gas cooker. The gas was turned off to remove the old appliance but the boiler then failed to relight. Our kitchen fitter diagnosed and seemed to fix the boiler for a time and he told us it needed a service. Now I'm not an expert but, when the boiler failed the first time, would it not have required a qualified engineer to diagnose and fix the problem and in doing so, would it not have been usual to have serviced it then? In the interim he also ascertained that the back up immersion heater also needed a new thermostat which I believe he replaced himself.

However, we also then discovered a gas leak which we got our fitter back to fix. He thought he fixed it (but it transpired he didn't test it) but a week later we could smell gas again, I got the national grid out and they diagnosed a rather serious leak. Our fitter tried again to fix it and again the gas was turned off. At this point the boiler failed again. Then the immersion heater failed.

The kitchen fitter then managed to fix the immersion heater- he said the new electrical panel he installed was faulty. Subsequently he says the leak has been resolved and tested and the boiler serviced and fixed. Thankfully we haven't had any further problems with these aspects of the work but without seeing ID or having any certificates I'm unwilling to sign the work off. So I'd like to know what paperwork I can expect to get from him to assure me the work has been done by a qualified Gas Safe engineer.

He says the electrical work doesn't legally require any paperwork but for our peace of mind he knows an electrician he's used who is prepared to inspect the work our kitchen fitter has done and provide a certificate at an additional cost to us.

I'm not convinced I should pay for this additional cost.

Any advice you can provide would be gratefully received.

Many thanks

Jo

Canucklehead

Good afternoon: ask the 'fitter' for his Gas Sae Register number then check here.

If he isn't on the GS Register he is working illegally and needs to be reported by you.

I'll leave comments on the electrics to the sparks on the board.;)

HTH

Canucklehead

fluffpot

The kitchen electrical works are notifiable under part P of the building regs, so he should either be registered with a competent persons scheme (see if he's listed at https://www.competentperson.co.uk) or he should have notified building control in advance and paid them a fee to inspect.

Either way he should also have tested the circuits he worked on/altered in advance and after his work to establish they are safe. The results should be provided to you either on and Electrical Installation Certificate or Minor Works Cert - both are pretty standard forms set out by the IEE (Institute of Electrical Engineers).

On the new kitchen sockets and any concealed cables (ie buried in walls) RCD protection is required - generally done within the fuse board, so check you have this too...

BTW an electrician isn't allowed to issue an installation certificate for anything other than his own work. If you want to get this done then it might at least give you peace of mind, but you shouldn't have to pay extra as it should have been carried out in the first place. Make sure you can get a Part P cert too or else you might have problems when you come to sell.
Hope this is helpful

Fluff

Yooj_2

When you say a new 'electrical panel' was fitted...was this a Consumer unit/fuseboard? If yes, then an Electrical installation certificate (EIC) would need to be issued together with Part P notification.

Any alterations to electrical circuits within a kitchen requires notification under Part P....however, if he was only moving sockets (without shortening or lenghtening cables), changing socket fronts, or doing like-for-like replacements of circuit cables (as long as they are not extended or shortened), then this would not require Part P notification.

Thermostat replacement does not require notification

Immersion heater electric renewal does not require notification if it is a like-for-like replacement.

So, based upon your work...the only things that require notification against Part P are any new circuits (not identical replacements), alterations/amendments to circuits in Kitchens and new consumer unit...assuming any of this type of work occured, which I am not yet clear on.

Any additions/alterations to existing circuits will generally require a Minor Works Certificate (MWC).

Finally, any electrical work, either additions/alterations or new circuits within a domestic setting will require the electrician to ascertain whether the earthing, main bonding and protective devices are all satisfactory, and if not, then they cannot do any electrical work unless these elements are rectified.

Yooj

kittykat23uk

Hi there,

thanks for the advice everyone. I have, of course asked for his gas safe registration details and those of the boiler engineer he used- so far he has not provided these. :mad:What Certification should I expect to receive for the boiler/cooker?

On the electricals in the kitchen, I understand that only the plug sockets, including the washing machine point, were moved around, we have several new ones with new fascias. I think the cooker points may have been renewed as well. An additional outside box for two sockets was also installed, replacing what he said as an illegal point in the kitchen. Does any of this require Part P notification and/or a minor works or EIC certificate? We've not had a new fuse board installed.

On the immersion heater, located in the airing cupboard upstairs, as I understand it he replaced the heating element and in doing so put in a new electrical power point (the electrical panel I mentioned- sorry if that wasn't clear). This later turned out to be faulty but has since been rectified. It's my understanding that this work was carried out by the kitchen fitter. So, If I establish that this was installed by a competent person that should be enough?

Thanks again

Jo

Yooj_2

kittykat23uk wrote: »

On the electricals in the kitchen, I understand that only the plug sockets, including the washing machine point, were moved around...

If the sockets have been moved around, the chances are that he has changed the circuit by adding cable in order to move the sockets...Therefore he should provide you at least an MWC for this. This would also be notifiable under Part P.

kittykat23uk wrote: »

we have several new ones with new fascias.

If you have had whole new sockets added in the kitchen, an not just new socket fronts put on, then this is definately work requireing at least an MWC if it was added to the existing socket circuit within the kitchen...This is also notifiable under Part P.

kittykat23uk wrote: »

I think the cooker points may have been renewed as well.

If he has just changed the old cooker point/switch for a new one, then this is fine and does not require a certificate or notification.

kittykat23uk wrote: »

An additional outside box for two sockets was also installed, replacing what he said as an illegal point in the kitchen. Does any of this require Part P notification and/or a minor works or EIC certificate? We've not had a new fuse board installed.

Yes, new sockets require at least an MWC and Part P notification.

kittykat23uk wrote: »

On the immersion heater, located in the airing cupboard upstairs, as I understand it he replaced the heating element and in doing so put in a new electrical power point (the electrical panel I mentioned- sorry if that wasn't clear). This later turned out to be faulty but has since been rectified.

It is likely that he has just done a like-for-like replacement in the airing cupboard, and therefore, strictly speaking no certification is required.

kittykat23uk wrote: »

It's my understanding that this work was carried out by the kitchen fitter. So, If I establish that this was installed by a competent person that should be enough?

Yes and no...

In order to be deemed to be a competent person, the electrician is inspected by a government authorised body and established they they are capable to carry out electrical installations for BS7671:2008 (the Wiring regulations for the UK) and Part P of the Building regulations...Even if he is a 'Competent Person', it still does not stop some lazy people from not following the regulations and not doing the job right, not doing the necessary inspection and testing and subsequent certifications and notifications...On the other hand, he might not be deemed competent, and he is operating outside of the law....therefore, this is what you need to ask him:

1/ Which electrical competent person registration body is he a member of? (Options are: NAPIT, NICEIC, ELECSA, BSi (never met a single person who was a member of BSi though)

2/ You will require an EIC (though possibly an MWC) for the work from him...I say EIC rather than MWC since I believe that you have more work than warrants a MWC...An MWC is generally only for minor work on a single circuit, and an EIC is for new circuits, new Consumer unit, multiple circuit additions/alterations...however, he might 'just' be able to get away with an MWC if all notifiable works was to the kitchen socket circuits, including the additional sockets. The long and short of it is that you definately require some form of electrical certificate from him.

3/ Part P...All installations, additions and alterations to any of the wiring in the kitchen will be required to be notified under Part P...Now, assuming he is a member of a registration body (discovered under item 1 above), then he will notify the work to your Local Authority through his registration body...The Local Authority would then send you the Building Notice Completion certificate (what people call the Part P certificate). This can take 30 or so days to come through.

4/ Don't forget the other things I mentioned previously, i.e. Bonding and earthing, since it is likely that if he has cut corners above, then he has cut corners here as well. Have a look here, which is a download from the Electrical safety Council regarding earthing and bonding.

Now assuming all the 4 items work out fine, then good. If not, and he still requests that he gets his mate to certify it, ask yourself whether his 'mate' would do an impartial inspection? Probably not.

So, what then...Well, have a look through this thread here, which will give you an insight into the various options open to you should you not get any joy from you kitchen fitter.

Yooj

Canucklehead

kittykat23uk wrote: »

Hi there,

thanks for the advice everyone. I have, of course asked for his gas safe registration details and those of the boiler engineer he used- so far he has not provided these. :mad:What Certification should I expect to receive for the boiler/cooker?

Good morning: see the links in my previous post re: certification of gas work. Registration should be checked before any gas work commences and every RGI should produce his/her GS ID card without being asked by consumers. Every RGI carries one of these. If either person involved in your project proves to be working illegally then do all consumers and legitimate( and insured) gas installers a favour and shop the cowboys.

HTH

Canucklehead

gas4you

Sounds like just the pilot light is going out and needs relighting each time the gas has been turned off.

For someone making alterations to gas pipes and/or fitting new appliances without doing a tightness test afterwards, smacks of either a cowboy or some very dangerous.

A registered gas engineer would always go round and relight all appliances after the gas has been turned off, to check that they have been purged of air and that they are working correctly again.

kittykat23uk

Hi all,

thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can get out of him.

Regarding the boiler, the initial fault was diagnosed as something to do with the pilot light ignition. To be fair, he said it was working when he left but it wasn't by the time it came home. The second time it failed it was diagnosed as a faulty thermocouple.

kittykat23uk

Hi all,

Well the latest is that we have now been furnished with the ID of the Gas Safe registered engineer who our kitchen fitter got in to service the boiler and presumably he also checked the pipework in the kitchen. I also have a number of the certificate that he has filled in, though I don’t yet have the certificate itself. So at least that checks out. However, the kitchen fitter has not provided an ID for himself and Gas Safe didn’t have him on their register, based on his name, company name and address and I know that he did do at least some of the work himself (as described above). So, from our point of view as long as the Gas Safe engineer has fully checked and ensured all the works are safe then I think we’re good, but I’m still not sure what to do about the kitchen fitter himself.

He still has some outstanding work to do, so I don’t want to cause too much of a fuss at the moment. Plus we still need to sort out the paperwork for the electrical works- apparently he’s having trouble getting hold of the electrician. However, I originally paid him to fix the boiler and also the immersion heater and to install the new cooker. Now if he isn’t registered then he shouldn’t have done this work himself and since the boiler and immersion heater then broke down again, necessitating the boiler service and a new part by the registered engineer, I feel like we’re being expected to pay twice for the boiler repair. The gas leak was a serious issue that again he should have got this registered guy in to sort out rather than trying to guess where it was twice and leaving our house in such a dangerous situation.

Furthermore, he charged us for unblocking our drain, but in the course of the work he discovered that the manhole cover needed replacing and I actually fell through it when I was clearing the garden. We agreed to pay for a new one, which he was going to fit. I thought this fitting was part of the cost of sorting out the drain and he did seem to agree, (stating that the only outstanding labour cost was for another aspect of the job) but when he came back recently to finish some jobs up he said that he didn’t have the right tool for the job and is now saying that he wont make good the cover because it wasn’t part of the job that we’ve paid him for already. He is also now saying that he didn’t even take up the old cover, but I could have sworn that he did.

Also, it’s even more frustrating because we had some other guys in to put up a new fence and this job could have been incorporated into the work I asked them to do, if our fitter had made it clear then that he didn’t believe it was part of what we’d paid him to do already.

Do you think I’m in my rights either insisting that he make good the cover or deducting the cost of getting someone else to do it from what we still owe him? I still own him for labour for one aspect of the job plus the supply of the manhole cover and the gas service/second repair of the boiler. I have already paid him for the first boiler repair, the immersion heater and the rest of the outstanding work that needs to be done.

Thanks,

Jo