Nursing Career - Diploma/Degree?

DonkeyKong77

Hello

On behalf of my little sister....strictly this is not a moneysaving issue, but i guess it does have financial implications.

Currently, she is at college, last year doing A2's i think, she know's she wants to go into nursing, or at least is interested, but she doesn't know the best way to go about it.

From what she's said, i understand there are 2 routes, doing a Diploma or a Degree, but we don't know the actual difference between them, in terms of "at the end of the day" scenario, i.e. there are those that are saying do the degree (purely because it sounds better! - i don't think that's the best advice i've heard), but by completing both aren't you then a qualified nurse? Does it have employability implications, whether you do a diploma or a degree? etc

Financially, i think non-means tested bursaries are available for the Diploma, and smaller grants are available for degrees, whilst with degrees, you can also apply for a student loan, which i don't think you can with the diploma. I think she's conscious of the fact that she doesn't want to burden "the family" with money worries, as we don't fall into the lowest threshold categories, but we aren't necessarily rolling in it.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks and sorry for the length of the post!

pondie1

the main difference i think is with degree you can make it to an higher grade nurse at the end of it,diploma you can do the course then do degree as an add on afterwards,my daughter is doing diploma,she gets around £7000 bursary,£2200 towards accommodation loan and fees are paid by nhs

Lady_K

How does your daughter get the money towards accomodation? Your daughter probaby has children does she or lives in london? I think the bursary increases too after a certain age. My daughter gets the basic just under 6k bursary this year but shes single and 22 but shes living in a student house and that takes a big chunk out if it. I'm just wondering if she may be able to claim accommodation costs

pondie1

my daughter is getting a part maintenance loan towards accommodation,thats the 2,200,though havent heard from this yet,the bursary is 5,983 but she was told its going up to 7.030 this year

pondie1

my daughter is 18 and going into first year training and student accommodation,was told by student finance helpline to apply for part loan,and worked it out on calculator on there site,i think degrees you can have loans but no bursary

r-ingram

A few thoughts:

The NHS is in a bit of turmoil at the moment as it attempts to balance the books this year, and for the first time in recent years there is likely to be less than full employment of newly qualified nurses. This could in turn impact on the competitiveness of the employment market. Things may change next year (we do actually need more nurses, but posts are being frozen to save money). At the other end of the process, places for new students are being reduced, so this could have an effect in 3 years when there may be far fewer nurses than jobs - still, this is all speculative.

In terms of nursing registration the qualification makes no difference. The practical side of the course is likely to be identical.

Nursing may well move to a degree only profession (i.e. new entrants will only have the option of a degree). When it does so, of course diploma nurses should be safe in their jobs, but the employers may begin to favour graduates more.

In the employment market a degree may confer some advantage (this will depend on the health of the nursing job market and competition at the time). It is not clear that at present it makes much difference on junior grades, though this could change.

Those hoping to progress to the higher reaches of the profession will undoubtedly need to have a degree (and for the very top, a masters degree or beyond).

Diplomates can after qualification, study whilst they work to achieve a degree (and very many nurses have done so successfully), but it will take longer (maybe 2 more years part time study), will cost (funding from employers is drying up as NHS turns "moneysavingexpert"), and may be tricky to combine with full time work / shift work. Also, as the "penny drops" amongst other nurses competition for places on such courses may become an issue at some stage (though as such courses generate income, capacity may increase to meet demand, however there is a strong shift to self-funding rather than employers funding these places).

Student nurses can often start on the diploma course and transfer to the degree for the 3rd year (thus getting the bursary for the first two years). Years 1 and 2 are usually identical for either route (students usually study together). Some institutions don't like this transfer thing, it can cause them bureacratic or financial headaches, and some will limit numbers transferring or set higher academic thresholds or other hurdles for students wishing to do so (unfairly in my view). But many do transfer. This is likely to vary very much from one uni to another.

If it were me (if I had my time again!) If I had the choice of either, I would do the degree. (I'm bound to want one when it becomes the norm, so why spend £5000 and 2 years to get one after I qualify, I could get a masters instead).

If I was really worried about affordability, I would consider the diploma (thus getting the bursary) and attempt to transfer at the end of year 2 (but the risk is that I would not be able to do so, whilst I might have got on the degree course easily at the start).

If I was worried about academic ability, I would still do the degree (it may be possible to transfer the other way if in difficulty, but only year three should be assessed at the higher level).

If very very very worried about academic ability, well maybe the diploma would help my confidence. But then I would hope I would still "suck it and see" / take the chance. By the time year 3 comes along, I will probably have got to grips with studying.

DonkeyKong77

Fantastic post - thanks very much for your thoughts. I'm thinking on behalf of younger sister (which as the older brother i am allowed to do!) but i think her instinct is telling her to do the diploma and transfer to a degree, i'm not sure when this transfer is most likely, i've seen some uni's saying it's possible to transfer after the first year,for example.

We're also not sure if a diploma converted to degree qualification is seen as the same as a degree outright, if that makes sense.

Also, my feeling is that in terms of career progression, a degree, rightly or wrongly, is likely to be of more influence than a diploma in the first instance.

Academically, i think i's about confidence (hopefully) but i don't think she is expecting to go to Cambridge, at least i'm hoping she can get the grades to qualify for a degree course outright. Financially, i've no doubt she is thinking about money worries, but we can cope, although the bursary would help no doubt. On the other hand, she would get a smaller bursary, but would apply for a student loan (not sure how much is available these days) but at least she wouldn't have the pressure of tuition fees.

Another thing she has to sort out is which uni to go to, she has a couple of uni visits lined up, but not sure if some uni's are more renowned for nursing than others? Though i wouldn't put so much credit on league tables. It would be good if she could just ask recruiters, rather than those trying to convince her to go to a particular uni. This would probably affect her devision, whether to stay at home, or move away which would cost more etc

r-ingram

Hi DK7

I'm glad it was of some help.

As far as the transfer to degree is concerned, if this is the plan, do make sure that the theoretical possibility that might appear in marketing material is actually a practical reality. Are there any limits on transfers, or academic hurdles or conditions? Have a chat with admissions tutors at the relevent UNI's.

I would tend to think the degree would always be better for career progression, but when we are short of nurses, employers are just very pleased to have good quality applicants. If and when this changes then the degree nurse may be more sought after. Some "old school" nurses (I mean, old fashioned, not old nurses that work as school nurses!) may believe that diploma nurses are better and are suspicious of the more academic and (supposedly) less practically able degree nurses. This is nonsense, but this perception does persist in some pockets. Personal experience suggests that the most able nurses would be so whatever qualification they posess because of their personal attributes.

But I would always hedge my bets and assume the degree will count for more at some time in the future.

The points required for access to nursing degrees varies a lot between institutions. Unless massively oversubscribed, the tariff that is set may be more a reflection of the competition for students between Uni's. Competition between Uni's (for applicants) can be stiff! A uni will suffer financially (and have funding clawed back) if they don't fill places. Tariffs will be set to reflect the market, not so high as to put applicants off, not too low to appear desperate (yes, really! Of course there's more to it, but this is part of it).

What Uni? Traditionally the centres of excellence for Nursing in the UK have been Manchester Uni, and Kings College, London. Here competition for places will be stiff, but they will not be everyone's cup of tea, and it may be a "hothouse" atmosphere.

Other than that, I am not convinced it makes too much difference about the Uni's perceived standing. Employers tend to recruit the students from the local Uni (they will have been involved in forcasting demand, and thus indirectly setting recruitment targets and part funding places for the Uni). The kudos of KCL or Manchester may open a few doors in the future, but I have never encountered this at the junior level. I think in practice, achievements post qualification (i.e. in the workplace) will open as many or more doors. Maybe of more relevance is that the student will be studying amongst academics of international reknown (whether they do much direct teaching is another matter, but it must have some effect on the learning experience).

It may be possible to get some more idea about each Uni's performance by looking at the Quality Assurance Agency reports (you can search reports on all institutions offering nursing / nursing & midwifery - look at both categories). They are lengthy reports, but sumarise an inspection process that is very rigorous and thorough (months of prep, and a 2 week visit). You can get a good idea of the strengths and weaknesses by delving into these.

Important considerations when choosing may be on the more practical side of things. Where will the placements be? Is a lot of travelling required? Is this easy (given the location, public transport, parking etc, some uni's will have placements across a large geographic area). What accomodation is offered? What are student support services like? Would I like to work in the placements used? Of course all the other usual criteria apply too, but when you visit the campus does it look like it is clean, well organised, have good resources and IT facilities, suggest a positive culture of mutual respect etc?

The subject league tables are a minefield an all Uni's will shout about one measure they do well in, whilst keeping quiet about those they do less well in. It is actually quite difficult to find a Uni that isn't saying its the best (at something!). I would suggest that the experience of the campus, staff, studying, the surroundings, and the practicalities are the most important issues rather than raw stats. Unfortunately those aspects are more a matter of intuition or gut feel to the visitor.

r-ingram

Just to add, I think getting the degree post-registration is certainly not viewed as detrimental, indeed it could demonstrate ability and determination, and the student will have done 2 more years of study. Its important to remember that in Nursing Diplomas and Degrees the actual "student effort time" (amount of study) is the same, only the level of assessment differs, and that just in the final year. Diploma students generally gain far more "level 2" points(diploma points) than they need for a DipHE because the amount of hours are set by the NMC requirements. So for a regular DipHE 240 points are required (120 each at level 1 and 2), but a nurse is likely to get 360 (240 at level 2). An honours degree is usually 360 points (120 at each level, 1, 2 & 3).

This can vary across Uni's as some modues in year 1 may be at "level 0" rather than level 1 (certificate level) and correspondingly there will be less than 240 at level 2, but the hours of work for any level of points are the same. (In a Uni I know of, 1 module = 20 points = 192 hours student effort, of which a maximum of 48 are "contact hours" (i.e. taught). Different Unis will have different length modules (e.g. 15 points), but the effort time will likely be pro-rata.

Oh dear, its getting a bit geeky now!

Lady_K

My daughters doing the advanced diploma where they do part of the degree and once they are qualified can do the rest of it in I think 6-12 months. Supposedly she will be able to get funding for it from her employers if shes lucky enough to actually get a job at the end of it. She finishes in July 2008 hope the job situation will have picked up by then

r-ingram

That sounds like a promissing formula, where is that?